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Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business rea

Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business reasons or whether it's just because they're pretty. To always dread meeting a new business contact, knowing there's a small but substantial chance he'll make some awkward comment. Some thoughts: 1. Is this more common in silicon valley than elsewhere? (I've never seen any remotely similar male->female sexual harassment in the non-valley places I've worked) 2. Is this more common among high-powered people than low-powered people (seems definitely so)? 3. There's definitely a double standard here. I once worked (in tech) with a good looking former male model. There were many very suggestive comments made to him and about him, and they made him feel obviously uncomfortable. Of course, the women making these comments did so pretty openly and with humor, as female->male is not really considered wrong for sexual harassment. 4. Obviously some of these remarks are worse than others. But many people do end up dating and marrying their coworkers (Bill Gates, Sergey Brin, Phil Knight...). I think there is not a black-and-white line for suggestive comments to people you are connected with at work. The line is thick and grey, but wow do some of these guys not have any self-awareness.

warcher 9y ago
It's a lot to do with the culture of entrepreneurship-- to do this stuff well requires taking a lot of risks without a lot of oversight. You can become fantastically successful doing it too, which comes with a whole host of other psychological dangers. And there is an obvious power imbalance at play. AND most critically, it's a culture that is very relationship based, where you don't want to burn bridges. It's not at all clear that the women that came forward, even now, are going to come out of it unscathed. Nobody's gonna come out against them now, but if they want to raise another round next year, who's gonna pick up the phone? I hope it isn't an issue, but if it were, there's no telling why your round didn't clear.
tuna-piano 9y ago
I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe it's very likely they might. Again, there are clearly methods that are right and clearly some that are wrong. But I have a feeling the large grey area can be considered harassment if a woman turns out not to be interested, and adoringly recalled in a heart-warming wedding toast if they end up getting married.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy. Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.
  - lawnchair_larry 9y ago
    Haha. You'll want to read the story of what he actually did before making this assumption. If the names were redacted from the Bill and Melinda story, everyone here would be calling for his head.
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      I don't know, it sounds like she said yes to the first date? Maybe I'm missing part of the story. http://people.com/human-interest/melinda-gates-love-story-bill-gates-sunday-morning/ http://people.com/human-interest/melinda-gates-love-story-bi...
      - Klockan 9y ago
        A 34 year old CEO asking a newly hired 23 year old college grad out on a date sounds like sexual harassment to me even if it was just a one time thing.
        linkregister 9y ago
        It certainly raises some interesting quid-pro-quo questions. Every sexual harassment training I've attended has mentioned this as very dangerous territory, but not explicitly sexual harassment.
        Klockan 9y ago
        If a CEO asked a much younger employee out and it made her so uncomfortable that she quit would you still say that it wasn't sexual harassment? Once is still too much. And for all we know Melinda might have felt compelled to say yes to avoid retaliation and only later accepted it.
jakelazaroff 9y ago
Also want to reply to #4. The thing that differentiates the sexual harassment in most of these cases is that there's a power imbalance. Being hit on becomes much scarier if declining might jeopardize your job or your startup's funding.
- tuna-piano 9y ago
  That's a fair point, but I chose those specific examples because there was a power imbalance. Brin was a co-founder of Google, where Amanda Rosenberg worked (dated for at least a bit). Bill Gates met his wife Melinda when she was a Microsoft employee (still married, 23 years). And Phil Knight (founder of Nike) actually met his wife when she was a student in his accounting class (power imbalance #1). He then hired her at Nike (power imbalance #2) and eventually initiated a romantic relationship with her[1]. They're still married today, ~50 years later. [1]This courtship, and the entire Phil Knight/ Nike story is told in his memoir, "Shoe Dog", which has 4.8 stars on Amazon, is highly recommended by Bill Gates, and is the best business book I've ever read.
- morgante 9y ago
  Does that mean that powerful men should never hit on women? A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets. Even if they're not actively raising money or trying to get a job, he's still a powerful man who could someday offer those things. I'm not trying to be trite here, but I really do wonder what the line is. Even as a man, I certainly pay attention to my interactions with powerful men (investors, CEOs) despite not currently trying to get something from them. If they hit on a woman in that scenario, would it be harassment?
  - plinkplonk 9y ago
    "A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets." It means that he should be very careful in doing so, and in any case never do this in the course of his work - e.g: in the course of negotiating with entrepreneurs, or even co-workers. I suspect that if this happened in a non work situation, it wouldn't gather this amount of outside attention. Would a tech VC, hitting on a TV anchor or an actress(say) be considered inappropriate, if he has nothing to do with the media business? I genuinely don't know. But I suspect if he keeps his love life separate from work, things would get tremendously easier.I think "power imbalance" becomes a factor only when a working relationship is involved. Still, interesting question. I think it behooves anyone who has significant money and/or power to be very careful in conducting their love lives.
stevenwoo 9y ago
a.) I've worked elsewhere for ten years prior to moving to Silicon Valley and I've never seen anything like what is described in the NY Times article. Also, every company big enough to have a HR department that I worked at also required employees to watch sexual harassment training (how to recognize what not to do, not a how to) videos. b.) The companies here in Silicon Valley that I worked for that were not startups also all had HR departments that required me to watch sexual harassment prevention training videos.
hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
Replying to #1, I think you are likely to see this dynamic in any industry where there are huge power imbalances, especially in an industry with tons of aspirants and very few successes (no one wants to jeopardize their potential "big break"). For example, Hollywood is pretty famous for this type of behavior. People are talking about "sexism in tech", but this case much more about "sexual harassment by the powerful."
femwarrior 9y ago
With respect to #4, men marrying "down" has historically been the biggest contributor to social mobility.
chasing 9y ago
Let me address your #4: Expressing romantic attraction to someone can be fraught. One party or other usually has to make some sort of leap, and that leap has the potential to backfire. So. This is why adults learn how to do two things: - Thing 1: Read the other person. It's entirely possible to take actions that could lead to romance, but that also allow both parties the ability to gracefully back out. Normal people should accept when the other person gently signals disinterest and attempt to restore the previous relationship. So I can believe that someone could form a solid and real romantic relationship with a subordinate. But: - Thing 2: Some people are creepy assholes with shit-bag pick-up lines who clearly don't see or care to see the lines between work and romance. These people say things like: "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you." Normal adults know that this is inappropriate and wildly uncomfortable (at best) for the target. It frankly feels like the actions of someone who has learned about women through Penthouse letters and porn (depending on their generation). It's like a pizza guy who thinks women opening their doors to pay for pizza are offering a sexual come-on. Executive summary: Trying to establish a romantic relationship with anyone is tricky, especially if you're already in a position of power. But normal, respectful adults know how to do so in a way that doesn't ruin relationships, offend people, hurt people, or confuse business relationships. Generally they do this by not muddying existing relationships and by by giving the other person a graceful out.

warcher 9y ago

It's a lot to do with the culture of entrepreneurship-- to do this stuff well requires taking a lot of risks without a lot of oversight. You can become fantastically successful doing it too, which comes with a whole host of other psychological dangers. And there is an obvious power imbalance at play. AND most critically, it's a culture that is very relationship based, where you don't want to burn bridges. It's not at all clear that the women that came forward, even now, are going to come out of it unscathed. Nobody's gonna come out against them now, but if they want to raise another round next year, who's gonna pick up the phone? I hope it isn't an issue, but if it were, there's no telling why your round didn't clear.

tuna-piano 9y ago

I just want to elaborate on point #4. I chose those examples purposefully: Those three are all well-known business leaders who have dated or married their subordinates. Presumably, there was a point where Gates/Brin/Knight initiated or suggested to initiate romantic involvement. If as it turns out the woman had not been interested, in retrospect, would the methods of initiation seem like sexual harassment? I believe it's very likely they might. Again, there are clearly methods that are right and clearly some that are wrong. But I have a feeling the large grey area can be considered harassment if a woman turns out not to be interested, and adoringly recalled in a heart-warming wedding toast if they end up getting married.

rhcom2 9y ago
If the women isn't interested, you stop. Seems like many men have a problem with rejection and accepting no, that's usually when it becomes creepy. Had Gates asked his now SO out and she said no and then he politely went on his way like a respectful human being I really doubt anyone would cry sexual harassment.
- lawnchair_larry 9y ago
  Haha. You'll want to read the story of what he actually did before making this assumption. If the names were redacted from the Bill and Melinda story, everyone here would be calling for his head.
  - rhcom2 9y ago
    I don't know, it sounds like she said yes to the first date? Maybe I'm missing part of the story. http://people.com/human-interest/melinda-gates-love-story-bill-gates-sunday-morning/ http://people.com/human-interest/melinda-gates-love-story-bi...
    - Klockan 9y ago
      A 34 year old CEO asking a newly hired 23 year old college grad out on a date sounds like sexual harassment to me even if it was just a one time thing.
      - linkregister 9y ago
        It certainly raises some interesting quid-pro-quo questions. Every sexual harassment training I've attended has mentioned this as very dangerous territory, but not explicitly sexual harassment.
        Klockan 9y ago
        If a CEO asked a much younger employee out and it made her so uncomfortable that she quit would you still say that it wasn't sexual harassment? Once is still too much. And for all we know Melinda might have felt compelled to say yes to avoid retaliation and only later accepted it.

jakelazaroff 9y ago

Also want to reply to #4. The thing that differentiates the sexual harassment in most of these cases is that there's a power imbalance. Being hit on becomes much scarier if declining might jeopardize your job or your startup's funding.

tuna-piano 9y ago
That's a fair point, but I chose those specific examples because there was a power imbalance. Brin was a co-founder of Google, where Amanda Rosenberg worked (dated for at least a bit). Bill Gates met his wife Melinda when she was a Microsoft employee (still married, 23 years). And Phil Knight (founder of Nike) actually met his wife when she was a student in his accounting class (power imbalance #1). He then hired her at Nike (power imbalance #2) and eventually initiated a romantic relationship with her[1]. They're still married today, ~50 years later. [1]This courtship, and the entire Phil Knight/ Nike story is told in his memoir, "Shoe Dog", which has 4.8 stars on Amazon, is highly recommended by Bill Gates, and is the best business book I've ever read.
morgante 9y ago
Does that mean that powerful men should never hit on women? A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets. Even if they're not actively raising money or trying to get a job, he's still a powerful man who could someday offer those things. I'm not trying to be trite here, but I really do wonder what the line is. Even as a man, I certainly pay attention to my interactions with powerful men (investors, CEOs) despite not currently trying to get something from them. If they hit on a woman in that scenario, would it be harassment?
- plinkplonk 9y ago
  "A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets." It means that he should be very careful in doing so, and in any case never do this in the course of his work - e.g: in the course of negotiating with entrepreneurs, or even co-workers. I suspect that if this happened in a non work situation, it wouldn't gather this amount of outside attention. Would a tech VC, hitting on a TV anchor or an actress(say) be considered inappropriate, if he has nothing to do with the media business? I genuinely don't know. But I suspect if he keeps his love life separate from work, things would get tremendously easier.I think "power imbalance" becomes a factor only when a working relationship is involved. Still, interesting question. I think it behooves anyone who has significant money and/or power to be very careful in conducting their love lives.

stevenwoo 9y ago

a.) I've worked elsewhere for ten years prior to moving to Silicon Valley and I've never seen anything like what is described in the NY Times article. Also, every company big enough to have a HR department that I worked at also required employees to watch sexual harassment training (how to recognize what not to do, not a how to) videos. b.) The companies here in Silicon Valley that I worked for that were not startups also all had HR departments that required me to watch sexual harassment prevention training videos.

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago

Replying to #1, I think you are likely to see this dynamic in any industry where there are huge power imbalances, especially in an industry with tons of aspirants and very few successes (no one wants to jeopardize their potential "big break"). For example, Hollywood is pretty famous for this type of behavior. People are talking about "sexism in tech", but this case much more about "sexual harassment by the powerful."

femwarrior 9y ago

With respect to #4, men marrying "down" has historically been the biggest contributor to social mobility.

chasing 9y ago

Let me address your #4: Expressing romantic attraction to someone can be fraught. One party or other usually has to make some sort of leap, and that leap has the potential to backfire. So. This is why adults learn how to do two things: - Thing 1: Read the other person. It's entirely possible to take actions that could lead to romance, but that also allow both parties the ability to gracefully back out. Normal people should accept when the other person gently signals disinterest and attempt to restore the previous relationship. So I can believe that someone could form a solid and real romantic relationship with a subordinate. But: - Thing 2: Some people are creepy assholes with shit-bag pick-up lines who clearly don't see or care to see the lines between work and romance. These people say things like: "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you." Normal adults know that this is inappropriate and wildly uncomfortable (at best) for the target. It frankly feels like the actions of someone who has learned about women through Penthouse letters and porn (depending on their generation). It's like a pizza guy who thinks women opening their doors to pay for pizza are offering a sexual come-on. Executive summary: Trying to establish a romantic relationship with anyone is tricky, especially if you're already in a position of power. But normal, respectful adults know how to do so in a way that doesn't ruin relationships, offend people, hurt people, or confuse business relationships. Generally they do this by not muddying existing relationships and by by giving the other person a graceful out.