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Because VCs are all populated by serial harassers who now realize they can't get away with this crap? Or are you saying these will be seen as false accusations

Because VCs are all populated by serial harassers who now realize they can't get away with this crap? Or are you saying these will be seen as false accusations and thus it'll scare off VCs who aren't run by mysogynist pieces of sh-t? Because I'm not sure what the alternative is. If a VC is not in the habit of harassing women, they have nothing to fear. In fact, it'll give them an opportunity to court talented entrepreneurs driven away from the immoral part of the VC spectrum.

chrischen 9y ago
"If you're not doing doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." Ahh--if only this were ever true.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Again, that statement is only false if these are false accusations. Are you saying they're false accusations?
  - chrischen 9y ago
    My point holds as long as false accusations are possible. Women, like men, are not all angels. Sexism, or even patriarchy, has no gender.
    - stale2002 9y ago
      False accusations are basically not possible though. The people getting in trouble right now are not the borderline cases of someone saying an awkward comment here or there. The people getting in trouble are the serial harassers who are so egregiously bad that a multitude of incidents are documented. Your big standard subtle sexist or tech douche bro has nothing to worry about.
      - icelancer 9y ago
        >False accusations are basically not possible though. Of course they are. There is opportunity, therefore it is possible.
      - adrr 9y ago
        Ellen Pao case shows they are quite possible.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - bt4u 9y ago
        Fake accusations are not possible? You're absolutely insane!
      - xor1 9y ago
        >The people getting in trouble are the serial harassers who are so egregiously bad that a multitude of incidents are documented. Donglegate was less than five years ago, did you already forget about it?
        pluma 9y ago
        Donglegate wasn't about false accusations, though. It was about a woman publicly shaming two other attendees for what she considered inappropriate jokes in a public setting and then being caught in the blowback when other people were unhappy with how she handled the situation. Her accusations were factual, although there was discussion about whether they were valid. Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers.
        xor1 9y ago
        I was responding to this too: >The people getting in trouble right now are not the borderline cases of someone saying an awkward comment here or there. >Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers. Which is completely unreasonable. Do you remember what she complained about them saying? Dongles and forking repos? They were discussing among themselves, it wasn't targeted at anyone, and any reasonable person wouldn't believe it was sexist.
    - hanspeter 9y ago
      But false accusations are possible about anything. By this logic VCs should avoid talking with anyone.
      - pluma 9y ago
        Sure, if you completely ignore the cultural context. Rape and sexual assault (of women) is seen as one of the worst possible crimes[0] a man can commit in most Western societies[1]. These crimes are so heinous that even accusations are enough to destroy someone's career and social status, even if the accusations are dropped or proven false. This is further complicated by these crimes generally being very difficult to prove without recorded evidence and eyewitnesses, creating a dilemma of either treating the accusation as fact (foregoing "innocent until proven guilty") or risking that a criminal can avoid consequences and may go on to repeat his crime. The media often favors the former, people close to the accused often prefer the latter, although even a disproven allegation can sow permanent doubt. There aren't many crimes a VC could be falsely accused of that have the possibility of such dire consequences and such a low burden of proof. [0]: The only crime I can think of that society treats as worse than sexual abuse of women is sexual abuse of children. [1]: This isn't about the relative severity of legal punishments, or in any way a judgement on what crime is "less bad" than another, just how people (and the media) generally react to people being charged with these crimes.
        azernik 9y ago
        The cultural context is pretty much the exact opposite. The cultural context is that men with power tend to get away with sexual harassment of subordinates for years before anyone gets caught. Only when there is a mountain of evidence and a small army of accusers does the world actually believe them. For all of the VCs described in this story - this was a pattern, corroborated by independent sources, and with details in writing. There is in fact a very high burden of proof before anyone even gets blasted in the mainstream media, let alone fired.
        pluma 9y ago
        I think the distinction that can be made is that allegations of sexual abuse of women are less damaging in some cases than others. That the people in question were able to "get away with it" says more about how their character is generally perceived from the onset than about society in general. It's true that society is ridiculously "tolerant" of gross misconduct of some people more than others but there are enough examples of lives being ruined by false allegations to validate my original point. As a sibling comment pointed out, Trump was elected despite his "locker room talk" and multiple women alleging sexual abuse (plus the actual chauvinism he has displayed on numerous occasions). However I would wager that similar allegations would be far more damaging if leveled against someone like Sanders. There's also the effect that successive allegations sometimes even reduce the credibility of the allegations because of suspected bandwagoning ("Oh, she just wants some of that attention to make herself interesting"). Humans are fickle and irrational, especially when in a group. Individuals tend to be treated differently but this tends to be more about social status than gender itself.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >Are you saying they're false accusations? Of course there are false accusations out there. It's not the majority of them or even a significant number. But it's not zero.
    - notgood 9y ago
      It is a significant number. For example in Hardvard campus 20% of the allegations were determined to be false[0]; but this is a controversial subject and the numbers all over the place[1] from state to state and even more from country to country but overall most quote numbers that are not an insignificant number. [0]http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-1-in-5-campus-rape-reports-are-false/article/2573324 http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-1-in-5-campus-rape-... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
  - nnfy 9y ago
    So long as there are incentives to make false accusations, there will always be false accusations. Just as there will always be true accusations.
  - plandis 9y ago
    Are you suggesting the false sexual harassment / rape accusations never happen? I think there are some athletes from Duke who were subject to character assassination and would entirely disagree with you.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
prodmerc 9y ago
Everyone has plenty to fear. Any sexual harassment/rape accusations (no matter how untrue) are incredibly damaging, it's very biased towards the accuser. The people who actually do this shit are scumbags, but there's plenty who will take advantage of this when things don't go their way, and reputation damage is worse than physical for a lot of people.
- grey-area 9y ago
  Do you have a citation of an actual case of a VC falsely accused and then exonerated, or is this all in your head?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

chrischen 9y ago

"If you're not doing doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." Ahh--if only this were ever true.

zzalpha 9y ago
Again, that statement is only false if these are false accusations. Are you saying they're false accusations?
- chrischen 9y ago
  My point holds as long as false accusations are possible. Women, like men, are not all angels. Sexism, or even patriarchy, has no gender.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    False accusations are basically not possible though. The people getting in trouble right now are not the borderline cases of someone saying an awkward comment here or there. The people getting in trouble are the serial harassers who are so egregiously bad that a multitude of incidents are documented. Your big standard subtle sexist or tech douche bro has nothing to worry about.
    - icelancer 9y ago
      >False accusations are basically not possible though. Of course they are. There is opportunity, therefore it is possible.
    - adrr 9y ago
      Ellen Pao case shows they are quite possible.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - bt4u 9y ago
      Fake accusations are not possible? You're absolutely insane!
    - xor1 9y ago
      >The people getting in trouble are the serial harassers who are so egregiously bad that a multitude of incidents are documented. Donglegate was less than five years ago, did you already forget about it?
      - pluma 9y ago
        Donglegate wasn't about false accusations, though. It was about a woman publicly shaming two other attendees for what she considered inappropriate jokes in a public setting and then being caught in the blowback when other people were unhappy with how she handled the situation. Her accusations were factual, although there was discussion about whether they were valid. Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers.
        xor1 9y ago
        I was responding to this too: >The people getting in trouble right now are not the borderline cases of someone saying an awkward comment here or there. >Also, the people who agree that her accusations were valid, are also likely the people who think that their behavior was indicative of them being serial harassers. Which is completely unreasonable. Do you remember what she complained about them saying? Dongles and forking repos? They were discussing among themselves, it wasn't targeted at anyone, and any reasonable person wouldn't believe it was sexist.
  - hanspeter 9y ago
    But false accusations are possible about anything. By this logic VCs should avoid talking with anyone.
    - pluma 9y ago
      Sure, if you completely ignore the cultural context. Rape and sexual assault (of women) is seen as one of the worst possible crimes[0] a man can commit in most Western societies[1]. These crimes are so heinous that even accusations are enough to destroy someone's career and social status, even if the accusations are dropped or proven false. This is further complicated by these crimes generally being very difficult to prove without recorded evidence and eyewitnesses, creating a dilemma of either treating the accusation as fact (foregoing "innocent until proven guilty") or risking that a criminal can avoid consequences and may go on to repeat his crime. The media often favors the former, people close to the accused often prefer the latter, although even a disproven allegation can sow permanent doubt. There aren't many crimes a VC could be falsely accused of that have the possibility of such dire consequences and such a low burden of proof. [0]: The only crime I can think of that society treats as worse than sexual abuse of women is sexual abuse of children. [1]: This isn't about the relative severity of legal punishments, or in any way a judgement on what crime is "less bad" than another, just how people (and the media) generally react to people being charged with these crimes.
      - azernik 9y ago
        The cultural context is pretty much the exact opposite. The cultural context is that men with power tend to get away with sexual harassment of subordinates for years before anyone gets caught. Only when there is a mountain of evidence and a small army of accusers does the world actually believe them. For all of the VCs described in this story - this was a pattern, corroborated by independent sources, and with details in writing. There is in fact a very high burden of proof before anyone even gets blasted in the mainstream media, let alone fired.
        pluma 9y ago
        I think the distinction that can be made is that allegations of sexual abuse of women are less damaging in some cases than others. That the people in question were able to "get away with it" says more about how their character is generally perceived from the onset than about society in general. It's true that society is ridiculously "tolerant" of gross misconduct of some people more than others but there are enough examples of lives being ruined by false allegations to validate my original point. As a sibling comment pointed out, Trump was elected despite his "locker room talk" and multiple women alleging sexual abuse (plus the actual chauvinism he has displayed on numerous occasions). However I would wager that similar allegations would be far more damaging if leveled against someone like Sanders. There's also the effect that successive allegations sometimes even reduce the credibility of the allegations because of suspected bandwagoning ("Oh, she just wants some of that attention to make herself interesting"). Humans are fickle and irrational, especially when in a group. Individuals tend to be treated differently but this tends to be more about social status than gender itself.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >Are you saying they're false accusations? Of course there are false accusations out there. It's not the majority of them or even a significant number. But it's not zero.
  - notgood 9y ago
    It is a significant number. For example in Hardvard campus 20% of the allegations were determined to be false[0]; but this is a controversial subject and the numbers all over the place[1] from state to state and even more from country to country but overall most quote numbers that are not an insignificant number. [0]http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-1-in-5-campus-rape-reports-are-false/article/2573324 http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-1-in-5-campus-rape-... [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape
- nnfy 9y ago
  So long as there are incentives to make false accusations, there will always be false accusations. Just as there will always be true accusations.
- plandis 9y ago
  Are you suggesting the false sexual harassment / rape accusations never happen? I think there are some athletes from Duke who were subject to character assassination and would entirely disagree with you.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

prodmerc 9y ago

Everyone has plenty to fear. Any sexual harassment/rape accusations (no matter how untrue) are incredibly damaging, it's very biased towards the accuser. The people who actually do this shit are scumbags, but there's plenty who will take advantage of this when things don't go their way, and reputation damage is worse than physical for a lot of people.

grey-area 9y ago
Do you have a citation of an actual case of a VC falsely accused and then exonerated, or is this all in your head?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]