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Has anyone seen a policy on how to handle sexual harassment allegations in the work place? If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even thoug

Has anyone seen a policy on how to handle sexual harassment allegations in the work place? If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? Similarly, if you don't fire someone and new allegations come up later then it makes the employer look like they are an enabler.

glibgil 9y ago
Policy: contact an attorney
kevinburke 9y ago
> If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said? If an employee of yours said they got mugged and lost their laptop, would you demand security camera footage before replacing it? You should default to trusting your employees. You hired them! They are invested in the company, potentially with equity! Especially in at-will employment agreements, I think this should be much closer to "Management reserves the right to let go of anyone at any time for any reason" than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt."
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  If you don't do any validation, this will be noticed and you will encourage false reports as a means of settling unrelated personal scores. That management reserves the right to dismiss for any reason doesn't mean that dismissing based on bare unconfirmed complaints is reasonable, either morally or from a business perspective.
  - andyburke 9y ago
    Where are you working that you can reasonably imagine this happening? The risks of someone making this claim are so, so high, yet you believe someone would do this just to 'settle unrelated personal scores'?
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Where are you working that you can reasonably imagine this happening? I'm working at a place where I can't imagine this happening because they, while taking harassment complaints very seriously, also take personnel actions very seriously and investigate before imposing permanent consequences, using other means to prevent furthering a problem during the investigation. > The risks of someone making this claim are so, so high If the company establishes a practice of firing without investigation, and the events are hard to disprove in a way which would sustain a defamation complaint by the falsely accused, the risks are near zero.
    - barsonme 9y ago
      http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/article158124954.html http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/article158124954.html Duke lacrosse. UVA. Conor Oberst. It happens. Allegations deserve investigation before punishment is doled out. Just because SV is doing an absolutely awful job at dealing with sexual harassment right now doesn't mean we need to swing hard the other direction and punish without proof.
    - nitwit005 9y ago
      You'd think we wouldn't need a security camera in our break room to stop people from stealing other people's food, but we do. People do all sorts of petty crap. If you expect rational behavior, you're going to be disappointed.
      - nickpsecurity 9y ago
        I envy that. I eat out or hide my food just because they won't put a camera in ours. Too much stuff stolen. I did get a thief once by putting a special ingredient in it then leaving it clearly marked with large letters and warning. They probably thought, "Screw him. He can't prove nothing." Jokes on him. :) Just did it once, though. I put a lot of effort into avoiding harming innocent people. The bar is getting lower and people are often tired so someone might grab it thinking it was a sample or something. Just too tired to be smart or something. So, continuing to avoid the fridge except looking for any freebies company provides. :)
    - 9y ago
- jbmorgado 9y ago
  > "If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said?" Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your sentence, but are you advocating that you should fire the accused employee right away with no evidence other than the word of the accuser?
- cortesoft 9y ago
  I totally agree with what you are saying as far as trusting your employees, but your examples are a little different; a better example would be "If an employee of yours says that another employee stole their laptop, would you demand security camera footage before firing the other employee?" I think the key thing to do, as a manager, is to start by beliving the employee making the complaint. Don't tell them things like "Oh, you must have misinterpreted" or "was it really that bad" or "I am sure he didn't mean it". You tell them you take their complain very seriously, that you are so sorry this happened to them, and that you will take action immediately. Then, you investigate. Shockingly, lots of harassers won't outright deny it if you ask them about specific behavior (don't come out and ask them if they sexually harassed, but ask them if they, for example, said these specific words that they are accused of saying); they won't lie because they don't think what they did was actually harassment, they think they were just flirting or being fun. You then take action, whether you need to fire the person, reprimand them, transfer them, demote them, etc.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  > If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said? And if the other employee said they didn't commit the rape, you should presumably believe them by default as well, right?
vkou 9y ago
IANAL, but: If you take the accusations seriously, gather evidence, and properly investigate them, you are unlikely to be sued. If it comes down to he said, she said, contact a lawyer.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
svwc 9y ago
A witness statement is evidence. Evidence isn't only things you can touch. A photograph isn't any more evidence than a witness statement is. A photograph isn't inherently more credible than a witness statement. You should consider the credibility of each piece of evidence regardless of what type of evidence it is. A statement made by a trustworthy employee should be taken seriously, "he said she said" is not a valid excuse to not make hard decisions.
- robbrown451 9y ago
  Sure but if it is denied by the other employee, you've got directly contradicting evidence. That's what "he said she said" is. I suppose the right word is "hard evidence." And yes I would say a photograph is, in general, more credible than a witness statement. I say this as someone who just went through a long trial (representing myself, while the other side had an attorney), with a lot of "he said she said", and where a tape recording (of a violent attack on me) and photographs (of bruises) made all the difference.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Recently the cases that have hit the news, have rarely been borderline grey areas. If someone comes forward it is because they are being serially harassed, have documentation to back it up, and there are multiple other people who have also been victims. He said she said situations will likely result in a warning or no action at all.
    - robbrown451 9y ago
      That's why I'd recommend people make recordings. The tough thing is, in California, it is illegal to record unless you have their permission, or if it is a felony in progress. (which it was in my case)
  - Atheros 9y ago
    "he said she said" is a third party statement. For example, "Bobby was talking to Veronica and he said she said that she doesn't like you."

glibgil 9y ago

Policy: contact an attorney

kevinburke 9y ago

> If it comes down to 'he says she says' do you fire someone even though you don't have evidence? If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said? If an employee of yours said they got mugged and lost their laptop, would you demand security camera footage before replacing it? You should default to trusting your employees. You hired them! They are invested in the company, potentially with equity! Especially in at-will employment agreements, I think this should be much closer to "Management reserves the right to let go of anyone at any time for any reason" than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt."

dragonwriter 9y ago
If you don't do any validation, this will be noticed and you will encourage false reports as a means of settling unrelated personal scores. That management reserves the right to dismiss for any reason doesn't mean that dismissing based on bare unconfirmed complaints is reasonable, either morally or from a business perspective.
- andyburke 9y ago
  Where are you working that you can reasonably imagine this happening? The risks of someone making this claim are so, so high, yet you believe someone would do this just to 'settle unrelated personal scores'?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Where are you working that you can reasonably imagine this happening? I'm working at a place where I can't imagine this happening because they, while taking harassment complaints very seriously, also take personnel actions very seriously and investigate before imposing permanent consequences, using other means to prevent furthering a problem during the investigation. > The risks of someone making this claim are so, so high If the company establishes a practice of firing without investigation, and the events are hard to disprove in a way which would sustain a defamation complaint by the falsely accused, the risks are near zero.
  - barsonme 9y ago
    http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/article158124954.html http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/article158124954.html Duke lacrosse. UVA. Conor Oberst. It happens. Allegations deserve investigation before punishment is doled out. Just because SV is doing an absolutely awful job at dealing with sexual harassment right now doesn't mean we need to swing hard the other direction and punish without proof.
  - nitwit005 9y ago
    You'd think we wouldn't need a security camera in our break room to stop people from stealing other people's food, but we do. People do all sorts of petty crap. If you expect rational behavior, you're going to be disappointed.
    - nickpsecurity 9y ago
      I envy that. I eat out or hide my food just because they won't put a camera in ours. Too much stuff stolen. I did get a thief once by putting a special ingredient in it then leaving it clearly marked with large letters and warning. They probably thought, "Screw him. He can't prove nothing." Jokes on him. :) Just did it once, though. I put a lot of effort into avoiding harming innocent people. The bar is getting lower and people are often tired so someone might grab it thinking it was a sample or something. Just too tired to be smart or something. So, continuing to avoid the fridge except looking for any freebies company provides. :)
  - 9y ago
jbmorgado 9y ago
> "If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said?" Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your sentence, but are you advocating that you should fire the accused employee right away with no evidence other than the word of the accuser?
cortesoft 9y ago
I totally agree with what you are saying as far as trusting your employees, but your examples are a little different; a better example would be "If an employee of yours says that another employee stole their laptop, would you demand security camera footage before firing the other employee?" I think the key thing to do, as a manager, is to start by beliving the employee making the complaint. Don't tell them things like "Oh, you must have misinterpreted" or "was it really that bad" or "I am sure he didn't mean it". You tell them you take their complain very seriously, that you are so sorry this happened to them, and that you will take action immediately. Then, you investigate. Shockingly, lots of harassers won't outright deny it if you ask them about specific behavior (don't come out and ask them if they sexually harassed, but ask them if they, for example, said these specific words that they are accused of saying); they won't lie because they don't think what they did was actually harassment, they think they were just flirting or being fun. You then take action, whether you need to fire the person, reprimand them, transfer them, demote them, etc.
sokoloff 9y ago
> If an employee of yours said they were raped by another employee, would you make them go to the hospital and get a rape kit before believing what they said? And if the other employee said they didn't commit the rape, you should presumably believe them by default as well, right?

vkou 9y ago

IANAL, but: If you take the accusations seriously, gather evidence, and properly investigate them, you are unlikely to be sued. If it comes down to he said, she said, contact a lawyer.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

svwc 9y ago

A witness statement is evidence. Evidence isn't only things you can touch. A photograph isn't any more evidence than a witness statement is. A photograph isn't inherently more credible than a witness statement. You should consider the credibility of each piece of evidence regardless of what type of evidence it is. A statement made by a trustworthy employee should be taken seriously, "he said she said" is not a valid excuse to not make hard decisions.

robbrown451 9y ago
Sure but if it is denied by the other employee, you've got directly contradicting evidence. That's what "he said she said" is. I suppose the right word is "hard evidence." And yes I would say a photograph is, in general, more credible than a witness statement. I say this as someone who just went through a long trial (representing myself, while the other side had an attorney), with a lot of "he said she said", and where a tape recording (of a violent attack on me) and photographs (of bruises) made all the difference.
- stale2002 9y ago
  Recently the cases that have hit the news, have rarely been borderline grey areas. If someone comes forward it is because they are being serially harassed, have documentation to back it up, and there are multiple other people who have also been victims. He said she said situations will likely result in a warning or no action at all.
  - robbrown451 9y ago
    That's why I'd recommend people make recordings. The tough thing is, in California, it is illegal to record unless you have their permission, or if it is a felony in progress. (which it was in my case)
- Atheros 9y ago
  "he said she said" is a third party statement. For example, "Bobby was talking to Veronica and he said she said that she doesn't like you."