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>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: I

>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us. For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic collapse, that it's an enormous bubble, that the economy can't grow without democracy, that Hong Kong needs to be a model of democracy for the rest of China, etc. This mainly comes out of the "official narrative" mouth pieces known as the New York Times and the Washington Post. Whenever I see nytimes.com in the sourcee I'm always thinking, ok what's the new angle that everyone's supposed to believe now? It would be better if they just gave the byline to someone at the State Department or the CIA.

wbl 9y ago
They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.
- vkou 9y ago
  The United States isn't far behind in making it illegal to report criminal behaviour. Consider ag-gag laws, consider how whistelblowers get punished.
  - devdoomari 9y ago
    ...at least US doesn't make money selling organs :( I really like the Chinese people, but... their gov. is f*king evil mess against them
    - Cpoll 9y ago
      The US exploits their disenfranchised as well: see the prison system.
- tesators 9y ago
  Exactly. If China wants to be a first class world power, they need to learn how to manufacture consent like the CIA. Right now they are having a hard enough time trying to control their citizens. They won't be a superpower until they topple a few democratically elected governments first.
- anth1988 9y ago
  Sounds great. They can also teach us to be experts in censorship, so instead of just ignoring their worse aspects we can actively suppress knowledge of them. That's what people want right? More effectively pretending china isn't a totalitarian regime?
- narrator 9y ago
  The U.S.A has 6x the per-capita prison population of China though. It's hard for me to understand how China is such an oppressive country and yet the number of people in prison per capita is so low.
  - logicchains 9y ago
    In China you can avoid oppression by not criticising the government. In America, you can avoid oppression by not being poor or black. The former is a lot easier than the latter.
  - refurb 9y ago
    If your only measure of political oppression is prisoners-per-capita, I can see why it's hard to understand.
- SkyMarshal 9y ago
  >imprison those who point out corruption, To be fair, the current Chinese administration (Xi Jinping) identified back in 2012 corruption as one of the greatest threats to the Communist party (rightly so for any government imho) and began an unprecedented campaign to crack down on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under...
  - Steko 9y ago
    Mostly a pretext to crush his political rivals.
- jtolmar 9y ago
  Those things, while terrible, are separable from their economic progress. Unless you believe that using political dissidents as organ donors helps the economy.
FabHK 9y ago
Good point. The enormous strides China has made in recent decades, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty - extremely impressive, and unambiguously good. Other things, not so much.
- dnh44 9y ago
  The thought of a truly democratic China today should be a terrifying thought to the rest of the world. It's a risky prospect compared to the current stability and growth. I'm sure they'll grow into their own version of democracy when necessary. And speaking of "democracy" is a two party system really all that much better or different than a one party system?
  - FabHK 9y ago
    I think very few people would hold up, say, the USA as a model of governance and democracy at this point. There's higher standards to aspire to. But, yes, even a two party democracy is better than a one party authoritarian regime.
  - ionised 9y ago
    Why would it be terrifying if it was truly democratic?
    - chemmail 9y ago
      lol
      - ionised 9y ago
        Terrifying because they are Chinese and you are not? Is that what your unhelpful 'lol' implies?
    - dnh44 9y ago
      Most of China is compromised of uneducated, ultra-nationalist peasant farmers. While they are lovely people I think it's in everyone's interest that they not dictate national policy. The current government is IMHO doing a great job. Even on issues that they aren't great on, they are at least trending in the right direction. Why meddle and fix something that isn't broken?

wbl 9y ago

They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.

vkou 9y ago
The United States isn't far behind in making it illegal to report criminal behaviour. Consider ag-gag laws, consider how whistelblowers get punished.
- devdoomari 9y ago
  ...at least US doesn't make money selling organs :( I really like the Chinese people, but... their gov. is f*king evil mess against them
  - Cpoll 9y ago
    The US exploits their disenfranchised as well: see the prison system.
tesators 9y ago
Exactly. If China wants to be a first class world power, they need to learn how to manufacture consent like the CIA. Right now they are having a hard enough time trying to control their citizens. They won't be a superpower until they topple a few democratically elected governments first.
anth1988 9y ago
Sounds great. They can also teach us to be experts in censorship, so instead of just ignoring their worse aspects we can actively suppress knowledge of them. That's what people want right? More effectively pretending china isn't a totalitarian regime?
narrator 9y ago
The U.S.A has 6x the per-capita prison population of China though. It's hard for me to understand how China is such an oppressive country and yet the number of people in prison per capita is so low.
- logicchains 9y ago
  In China you can avoid oppression by not criticising the government. In America, you can avoid oppression by not being poor or black. The former is a lot easier than the latter.
- refurb 9y ago
  If your only measure of political oppression is prisoners-per-capita, I can see why it's hard to understand.
SkyMarshal 9y ago
>imprison those who point out corruption, To be fair, the current Chinese administration (Xi Jinping) identified back in 2012 corruption as one of the greatest threats to the Communist party (rightly so for any government imho) and began an unprecedented campaign to crack down on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under_Xi_Jinping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-corruption_campaign_under...
- Steko 9y ago
  Mostly a pretext to crush his political rivals.
jtolmar 9y ago
Those things, while terrible, are separable from their economic progress. Unless you believe that using political dissidents as organ donors helps the economy.

FabHK 9y ago

Good point. The enormous strides China has made in recent decades, the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of people lifted out of poverty - extremely impressive, and unambiguously good. Other things, not so much.

dnh44 9y ago
The thought of a truly democratic China today should be a terrifying thought to the rest of the world. It's a risky prospect compared to the current stability and growth. I'm sure they'll grow into their own version of democracy when necessary. And speaking of "democracy" is a two party system really all that much better or different than a one party system?
- FabHK 9y ago
  I think very few people would hold up, say, the USA as a model of governance and democracy at this point. There's higher standards to aspire to. But, yes, even a two party democracy is better than a one party authoritarian regime.
- ionised 9y ago
  Why would it be terrifying if it was truly democratic?
  - chemmail 9y ago
    lol
    - ionised 9y ago
      Terrifying because they are Chinese and you are not? Is that what your unhelpful 'lol' implies?
  - dnh44 9y ago
    Most of China is compromised of uneducated, ultra-nationalist peasant farmers. While they are lovely people I think it's in everyone's interest that they not dictate national policy. The current government is IMHO doing a great job. Even on issues that they aren't great on, they are at least trending in the right direction. Why meddle and fix something that isn't broken?