4 ms·

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping

by sho 9y ago

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. The country is not in as precarious a position as it was back then, and with the progression of stabilisation, the need to suppress embarrassing parts of history will hopefully diminish. I certainly doubt something like that could happen again. And you might know that censorship can take different forms. The CCP has historically taken a heavy-handed approach; other countries are more subtle, but they de-emphasize and bury. I personally think that Japan's systematic memory-hole-ing of its WWII exploits is far worse than the Tiananmen suppression. And what percentage of Americans do you think know about Kent State? Dresden? Hell, dronings? Not really defending China here, or trying to start a game of whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that they're not North Korea, their citizens are not stupid, governments will always protect themselves, and history is written by the winners everywhere.

carapace 9y ago
I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes even to think about it, and here is a government site describing it: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. The people who comprise the CCP are scary. What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?
- justicezyx 9y ago
  I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color". CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/... > suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware. > Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true. > The people who comprise the CCP are scary. CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987... > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. > To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". > The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. > And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. > But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion? Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government. While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.
  - carapace 9y ago
    I'm not sure I was replying directly to your comment either. I apologize. I only recently learned about the whole "washing" of the "Incident" and it has really made me think. I certainly agree with your rebuttal. I do not conflate the CCP with the Chinese people. And I'm aware that there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who don't even live in China. I also recognize that most of the members of the CCP are good people, the ones I call "scary" are a small minority. (Even if I don't agree with Communism.) All things considered, if I'm thinking clearly, the most important thing I can recognize about China and the Chinese people is my own deep ignorance. :) - - - some points: In re: the Falun Gong, they have newspapers and occasional demonstrations where I live, and they manage to make a very sober and sobering account of it. If they are lying they are damn good at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... I don't know the truth of it myself, I hate to believe it. > > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? > No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. Which is reassuring in one sense but dreadful in another: the concept of the "Mandate of Heaven" is still valid, even if you take it just as a metaphor? > Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". I mean the attempt to pretend the Tiananmen Square Massacre didn't happen. > No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. I mean that the folks responsible for the decision to try to change history are being arrogant, institutionally if not personally. > Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. I agree. But taken together, as a Nation, that's a lil schizophrenic. Part of the nation knowing about the massacre and part "knowing" that it was merely an "incident" or even a myth, that's very schizophrenic. Even if most of the people see through it, it's still unhealthy I think. In re: Taiping Rebellion. When I read about it I was horrified. A vast horde hopped up on rebellion and bad religion and overrunning everything they could... And they call it a "righteous movement"..? Anyhow, sorry for my ignorance.
uiri 9y ago
Kent State, Dresden and dronings are well-known, if not in the US, then in Canada (where I'm from). The first one is mainly from the protest song by Neil Young which may be played more often here due to Canadian content requirements. Of course, Canada has its own sordid moments in history... Residential schools, Oka & Ipperwash crises, Japanese internment during WW2. I think the Chinese government may play a role in strategically choosing only the most extreme and nationalistic individuals as eligible emigrants. This will skew the perspective of Americans who don't leave their country. Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0]. [0] https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-c...
- justicezyx 9y ago
  > Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0]. Why "Chinese student protesting" is labeled as "spying". Dalai does want to make a part of China become independent. Without going into the debate into the legitimacy of this claim, can a country's citizen express their own emotion through the right channel? What makes them spy?!
  - uiri 9y ago
    The protests themselves are not "spying" per se but rather a tactic used to promote pro-Chinese government propaganda. According to the linked article, members of the student group have been accused of spying. Straight out of that article: Li Fengzhi, a longtime employee of the Chinese Ministry of State Security who came to the United States in 2003 as a graduate student at the University of Denver, said that the Chinese government did not see the group so much as a spying operation, but rather as a propaganda and “information collection organization.” Mr. Li eventually defected and was debriefed by F.B.I. counterintelligence agents about the group’s activities.
    - paradite 9y ago
      > Li Fengzhi, a longtime employee of the Chinese Ministry of State Security who came to the United States in 2003 as a graduate student at the University of Denver, said that the Chinese government did not see the group so much as a spying operation, but rather as a propaganda and “information collection organization.” I could not find any other sources to cross-reference this information. All the information that I could find about Li Fengzhi (wikileaks, washingtonpost) talks about his link to Ministry of State Security (MSS), and make no mentions of comments made on the student groups. So it would appear that he was talking about MSS when talking about "the group". - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/exclusive-chinese-spy-who-defected-tells-all/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/exclusive-ch... - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/li_fengzhi_chinese_spy_who_def.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/li_fengzhi... - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/10/li_fengzhi_ex-chinese_spy_gran.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/10/li_fengzhi... - https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1231001_re-spytalk-li-fengzhi-chinese-spy-who-defected-to-u-s-facing.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1231001_re-spytalk-li-... Of course I could be wrong and NYT had the first hand information on that, but the entire Li Fengzhi story ended in 2010 so it is not likely that NYT had the information without publishing it before 2017.

by sho 9y ago

carapace 9y ago

I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes even to think about it, and here is a government site describing it: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. The people who comprise the CCP are scary. What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?

justicezyx 9y ago
I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color". CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/... > suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware. > Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true. > The people who comprise the CCP are scary. CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987... > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. > To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". > The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. > And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. > But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion? Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government. While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.
- carapace 9y ago
  I'm not sure I was replying directly to your comment either. I apologize. I only recently learned about the whole "washing" of the "Incident" and it has really made me think. I certainly agree with your rebuttal. I do not conflate the CCP with the Chinese people. And I'm aware that there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who don't even live in China. I also recognize that most of the members of the CCP are good people, the ones I call "scary" are a small minority. (Even if I don't agree with Communism.) All things considered, if I'm thinking clearly, the most important thing I can recognize about China and the Chinese people is my own deep ignorance. :) - - - some points: In re: the Falun Gong, they have newspapers and occasional demonstrations where I live, and they manage to make a very sober and sobering account of it. If they are lying they are damn good at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go... I don't know the truth of it myself, I hate to believe it. > > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? > No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. Which is reassuring in one sense but dreadful in another: the concept of the "Mandate of Heaven" is still valid, even if you take it just as a metaphor? > Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". I mean the attempt to pretend the Tiananmen Square Massacre didn't happen. > No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. I mean that the folks responsible for the decision to try to change history are being arrogant, institutionally if not personally. > Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. I agree. But taken together, as a Nation, that's a lil schizophrenic. Part of the nation knowing about the massacre and part "knowing" that it was merely an "incident" or even a myth, that's very schizophrenic. Even if most of the people see through it, it's still unhealthy I think. In re: Taiping Rebellion. When I read about it I was horrified. A vast horde hopped up on rebellion and bad religion and overrunning everything they could... And they call it a "righteous movement"..? Anyhow, sorry for my ignorance.

uiri 9y ago

Kent State, Dresden and dronings are well-known, if not in the US, then in Canada (where I'm from). The first one is mainly from the protest song by Neil Young which may be played more often here due to Canadian content requirements. Of course, Canada has its own sordid moments in history... Residential schools, Oka & Ipperwash crises, Japanese internment during WW2. I think the Chinese government may play a role in strategically choosing only the most extreme and nationalistic individuals as eligible emigrants. This will skew the perspective of Americans who don't leave their country. Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0]. [0] https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-c...

justicezyx 9y ago
> Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0]. Why "Chinese student protesting" is labeled as "spying". Dalai does want to make a part of China become independent. Without going into the debate into the legitimacy of this claim, can a country's citizen express their own emotion through the right channel? What makes them spy?!
- uiri 9y ago
  The protests themselves are not "spying" per se but rather a tactic used to promote pro-Chinese government propaganda. According to the linked article, members of the student group have been accused of spying. Straight out of that article: Li Fengzhi, a longtime employee of the Chinese Ministry of State Security who came to the United States in 2003 as a graduate student at the University of Denver, said that the Chinese government did not see the group so much as a spying operation, but rather as a propaganda and “information collection organization.” Mr. Li eventually defected and was debriefed by F.B.I. counterintelligence agents about the group’s activities.
  - paradite 9y ago
    > Li Fengzhi, a longtime employee of the Chinese Ministry of State Security who came to the United States in 2003 as a graduate student at the University of Denver, said that the Chinese government did not see the group so much as a spying operation, but rather as a propaganda and “information collection organization.” I could not find any other sources to cross-reference this information. All the information that I could find about Li Fengzhi (wikileaks, washingtonpost) talks about his link to Ministry of State Security (MSS), and make no mentions of comments made on the student groups. So it would appear that he was talking about MSS when talking about "the group". - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/exclusive-chinese-spy-who-defected-tells-all/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/19/exclusive-ch... - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/li_fengzhi_chinese_spy_who_def.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/09/li_fengzhi... - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/10/li_fengzhi_ex-chinese_spy_gran.html http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/10/li_fengzhi... - https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1231001_re-spytalk-li-fengzhi-chinese-spy-who-defected-to-u-s-facing.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/12/1231001_re-spytalk-li-... Of course I could be wrong and NYT had the first hand information on that, but the entire Li Fengzhi story ended in 2010 so it is not likely that NYT had the information without publishing it before 2017.