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You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area.

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area. Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to the information, and it gets worse over time.

justicezyx 9y ago
I think you are right. But I want to point out that most college educated people know there is a tianmen incident. They may view it as a unlawful riot, instead of what believed by western people. My statement "I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen" seems too rush and was from my own experience only, because I learned Tianmen incident in college. Or I should say most people eventually will be ignorant about what's tianmen incident. They neither believe it happened or not happened, they simply have no such idea, like in an alternative universe.
sho 9y ago
In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. The country is not in as precarious a position as it was back then, and with the progression of stabilisation, the need to suppress embarrassing parts of history will hopefully diminish. I certainly doubt something like that could happen again. And you might know that censorship can take different forms. The CCP has historically taken a heavy-handed approach; other countries are more subtle, but they de-emphasize and bury. I personally think that Japan's systematic memory-hole-ing of its WWII exploits is far worse than the Tiananmen suppression. And what percentage of Americans do you think know about Kent State? Dresden? Hell, dronings? Not really defending China here, or trying to start a game of whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that they're not North Korea, their citizens are not stupid, governments will always protect themselves, and history is written by the winners everywhere.
- carapace 9y ago
  I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes even to think about it, and here is a government site describing it: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. The people who comprise the CCP are scary. What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color". CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/... > suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware. > Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true. > The people who comprise the CCP are scary. CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987... > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. > To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". > The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. > And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. > But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion? Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government. While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.
jff 9y ago
"On June 4 1989, absolutely nothing happened here" :)
- justicezyx 9y ago
  What's the context of this reference?
  - jff 9y ago
    Just a combination of those joke plaques that say "On this site in 1897, nothing happened" with the date of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

justicezyx 9y ago

I think you are right. But I want to point out that most college educated people know there is a tianmen incident. They may view it as a unlawful riot, instead of what believed by western people. My statement "I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen" seems too rush and was from my own experience only, because I learned Tianmen incident in college. Or I should say most people eventually will be ignorant about what's tianmen incident. They neither believe it happened or not happened, they simply have no such idea, like in an alternative universe.

sho 9y ago

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. The country is not in as precarious a position as it was back then, and with the progression of stabilisation, the need to suppress embarrassing parts of history will hopefully diminish. I certainly doubt something like that could happen again. And you might know that censorship can take different forms. The CCP has historically taken a heavy-handed approach; other countries are more subtle, but they de-emphasize and bury. I personally think that Japan's systematic memory-hole-ing of its WWII exploits is far worse than the Tiananmen suppression. And what percentage of Americans do you think know about Kent State? Dresden? Hell, dronings? Not really defending China here, or trying to start a game of whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that they're not North Korea, their citizens are not stupid, governments will always protect themselves, and history is written by the winners everywhere.

carapace 9y ago
I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes even to think about it, and here is a government site describing it: https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. The people who comprise the CCP are scary. What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion?
- justicezyx 9y ago
  I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color". CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremist/... > suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. This is correct and true. And governments around world are learning quickly. That's the part we all should be aware. > Today, in China, Falun Gong practitioners are being imprisoned and having their organs harvested. I am not sure where you got this "fact"... This is a well-known fabricated lie of the Falun Gong leaders... Again, I cannot prove that no such thing, just as I cannot proven that there wasn't human organ harvesting in US. I can only say that all the sources to claim the existence of such thing is not true. > The people who comprise the CCP are scary. CCP has 80MM members. Please do not randomly exaggerate fact... If 80MM people are skilled practitioner of CCP tricks, China will already be the master of the world before 1987... > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either. > To define a false reality and insist with strength of law that it's real? Not sure what do you mean by "false reality". > The incredible grotesque arrogance of the thing! No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to. > And what a mind-fk for a nation to do to itself!? Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party. > But then I think, what would I do, how far would I go, to prevent another Taiping Rebellion? Interesting. If you read CCP's propaganda, Taiping Rebellion is proclaimed as the righteous movement of the people to overthrow a corrupted government. While in reality, Taiping Rebellion is more like a group of manic that causes havoc across the nation. It brings no advance to anything, and killed 10MM+ people. And is considered a setback to the overall progress of Chinese society.

jff 9y ago

"On June 4 1989, absolutely nothing happened here" :)

justicezyx 9y ago
What's the context of this reference?
- jff 9y ago
  Just a combination of those joke plaques that say "On this site in 1897, nothing happened" with the date of the Tiananmen Square Massacre.