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I think a lot of the times what is missing in this conversation is the need to first get teachers in the classroom that know how to code and want to teach it. U

I think a lot of the times what is missing in this conversation is the need to first get teachers in the classroom that know how to code and want to teach it. Unfortunately a teachers salary is much, much lower than what someone who does know how to code can make elsewhere. I understand that there are a lot of online tools that make learning/teaching coding easier but I do believe the person teaching it still needs to have a decent understanding. Kids ask tons of questions on how to accomplish certain things and if the teacher doesn't really know how to code, they won't be able to help those students who will then lose interest.

taurath 9y ago
And even if you were 100% driven to teach, you could be consulting for a code school or something else thats far more lucrative. I'd consider at this point the only people who are actually teaching full time would be people doing it for charity. Except, instead of being thanked you have to navigate all the administration and just plain pains in the ass that come from being a teacher. The most likely people to go teach how to code are: 1) People who are only academic and don't have any desire to join the private sector (unlikely to be the best teachers) 2) People who've joined the private sector and have their retirement already done (unlikely to put up with administration) 3) People who code as a hobby, have a spouse or other financial support (hard to find at all)
- 20years 9y ago
  Exactly this! I think I fall mostly into your #2. I have been self employed for 15 years and for the past year have been volunteering at my sons middle school 1 hour per week. I am not retired but have financial stability from my own business. Your points about dealing with the administration are so true. It is beyond frustrating. I understand their hands are tied on certain things because they have guidelines, etc. to follow but it really has made me realize I would never consider teaching for a living in the current education system. Not only because the pay is low but because of all of the political crap you have to deal with. I have been approaching it as don't ask first and do things the way I want until they tell me no. It has caused friction with the administration but I don't really care because the kids are getting so much from it and the classes always book up super fast with a waiting list. I am doing this for free so what is the worst they can do? Cut me off? That would a disservice to the kids not to me. Your #1 point is what I see the most and some of what is being taught or lack there of is mind blowing.
shishy 9y ago
This is a really good point. I was thinking a while ago about the role of teachers in this context and why they're so necessary, especially in this day and age where there are online tutorials for everything. I was taught how to code from early on (6th grade), and most of my learning of programming (which I would distinguish from computer science) happened as we worked on projects/built things. I can't tell you how many times I saw other students get stuck on bugs along the way during development and get really frustrated with programming (I saw this when I was a student, and later when I taught others how to code). What always helped was having teachers/instructors who could easily help students work through those roadblocks so they didn't get stuck and holed up on one thing. Not really the traditional teacher that just stays up and lectures at students but rather one that also spends time getting in there and working alongside them to some extent. Traditional classrooms/lectures are structured from the ancient days where students went to listen to a professor speak and jot down whatever the lecturer orated. But now, especially with programming, the emphasis is more on building, and so that changes what the instructor really does in the classroom (just "lecturing" vs "facilitating" and "supporting"). Probably a long-winded way of the same point you just made, but I just thought I'd elaborate since it's interesting to me. Some of my friends say that these online courses are 100% independently viable but I am not convinced that they are a suitable replacement for teachers (though I recognize it really depends on the students and how independently motivated or how prone to getting burned out they are...). Just my 2cents...
- 20years 9y ago
  I agree with everything you said. I am also not convinced that "these online courses are 100% independently viable" especially for the younger kids. I didn't think this a year ago but my opinion has really changed since having the opportunity to teach kids in person in a class. I use online tools in the class and they are awesome but would have lost 90% of the kids if they didn't have someone there to guide/explain things in more detail. I was also pleasantly surprised how often kids asked "how can I make it do this" which was something outside of what the online tutorial taught. The tutorials were great at sparking their interest but can't really accommodate all of the edge cases especially for those more creative thinkers. I also learned that most of the kids got bored fairly quickly following step-by-step tutorials. They wanted to hack and play around with what they were learning. So I changed the tutorials to be much smaller with very small steps and at the end of each mini tutorial, I encouraged them to hack and try different things based on what they learned. Maybe with a live online teacher available this would be less of an issue but even with that you lose the personal interaction the kids have with each other and the teacher. Things like showing each other what they created and working directly with the teacher/other kids to expand on that. I think a lot of younger kids really do need that interaction and in-person feedback and I am not sure how that can be re-created online.
posterboy 9y ago
This could be driven by industry, as many things are, and as they do to promote and get trained personal in unis. IMHO, computer literacy would have to be combined with math classes from an early age. To achieve that, computer literacy or rather programming in general would have to become much more common knowledge. That is an ongoing process, I believe. I don't know what's wrong with the American school systems, but the introduction of programming as a standard curriculum can be gradual, until parents and prospect teachers can be reasonably expected to have absorbed enough to foster the children in this respect. I did have three years of computer science in a German A-levels program, by choice, roughly equal to the topics of a first bachelors semester (at best) - remember, the first semester in uni will not include much coding at all, compared to theory. The theory was applied in haskell, prolog, sql and mainly ruby. Anyway, I had coded in basic already before I went there. My teachers were engaging in the FSF Europe to get FOSS into schools, maintained the school network and were passionate and old school. It was the only school in the district to offer this class.

taurath 9y ago

And even if you were 100% driven to teach, you could be consulting for a code school or something else thats far more lucrative. I'd consider at this point the only people who are actually teaching full time would be people doing it for charity. Except, instead of being thanked you have to navigate all the administration and just plain pains in the ass that come from being a teacher. The most likely people to go teach how to code are: 1) People who are only academic and don't have any desire to join the private sector (unlikely to be the best teachers) 2) People who've joined the private sector and have their retirement already done (unlikely to put up with administration) 3) People who code as a hobby, have a spouse or other financial support (hard to find at all)

20years 9y ago
Exactly this! I think I fall mostly into your #2. I have been self employed for 15 years and for the past year have been volunteering at my sons middle school 1 hour per week. I am not retired but have financial stability from my own business. Your points about dealing with the administration are so true. It is beyond frustrating. I understand their hands are tied on certain things because they have guidelines, etc. to follow but it really has made me realize I would never consider teaching for a living in the current education system. Not only because the pay is low but because of all of the political crap you have to deal with. I have been approaching it as don't ask first and do things the way I want until they tell me no. It has caused friction with the administration but I don't really care because the kids are getting so much from it and the classes always book up super fast with a waiting list. I am doing this for free so what is the worst they can do? Cut me off? That would a disservice to the kids not to me. Your #1 point is what I see the most and some of what is being taught or lack there of is mind blowing.

shishy 9y ago

This is a really good point. I was thinking a while ago about the role of teachers in this context and why they're so necessary, especially in this day and age where there are online tutorials for everything. I was taught how to code from early on (6th grade), and most of my learning of programming (which I would distinguish from computer science) happened as we worked on projects/built things. I can't tell you how many times I saw other students get stuck on bugs along the way during development and get really frustrated with programming (I saw this when I was a student, and later when I taught others how to code). What always helped was having teachers/instructors who could easily help students work through those roadblocks so they didn't get stuck and holed up on one thing. Not really the traditional teacher that just stays up and lectures at students but rather one that also spends time getting in there and working alongside them to some extent. Traditional classrooms/lectures are structured from the ancient days where students went to listen to a professor speak and jot down whatever the lecturer orated. But now, especially with programming, the emphasis is more on building, and so that changes what the instructor really does in the classroom (just "lecturing" vs "facilitating" and "supporting"). Probably a long-winded way of the same point you just made, but I just thought I'd elaborate since it's interesting to me. Some of my friends say that these online courses are 100% independently viable but I am not convinced that they are a suitable replacement for teachers (though I recognize it really depends on the students and how independently motivated or how prone to getting burned out they are...). Just my 2cents...

20years 9y ago
I agree with everything you said. I am also not convinced that "these online courses are 100% independently viable" especially for the younger kids. I didn't think this a year ago but my opinion has really changed since having the opportunity to teach kids in person in a class. I use online tools in the class and they are awesome but would have lost 90% of the kids if they didn't have someone there to guide/explain things in more detail. I was also pleasantly surprised how often kids asked "how can I make it do this" which was something outside of what the online tutorial taught. The tutorials were great at sparking their interest but can't really accommodate all of the edge cases especially for those more creative thinkers. I also learned that most of the kids got bored fairly quickly following step-by-step tutorials. They wanted to hack and play around with what they were learning. So I changed the tutorials to be much smaller with very small steps and at the end of each mini tutorial, I encouraged them to hack and try different things based on what they learned. Maybe with a live online teacher available this would be less of an issue but even with that you lose the personal interaction the kids have with each other and the teacher. Things like showing each other what they created and working directly with the teacher/other kids to expand on that. I think a lot of younger kids really do need that interaction and in-person feedback and I am not sure how that can be re-created online.

posterboy 9y ago

This could be driven by industry, as many things are, and as they do to promote and get trained personal in unis. IMHO, computer literacy would have to be combined with math classes from an early age. To achieve that, computer literacy or rather programming in general would have to become much more common knowledge. That is an ongoing process, I believe. I don't know what's wrong with the American school systems, but the introduction of programming as a standard curriculum can be gradual, until parents and prospect teachers can be reasonably expected to have absorbed enough to foster the children in this respect. I did have three years of computer science in a German A-levels program, by choice, roughly equal to the topics of a first bachelors semester (at best) - remember, the first semester in uni will not include much coding at all, compared to theory. The theory was applied in haskell, prolog, sql and mainly ruby. Anyway, I had coded in basic already before I went there. My teachers were engaging in the FSF Europe to get FOSS into schools, maintained the school network and were passionate and old school. It was the only school in the district to offer this class.