5 ms·

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Ho

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as West Bank) -Palestinians in the West Bank are separated from Israel, and are required to enter checkpoints to cross over. Hong Kong residents also need to go through (less invasive) checkpoints to go into China. At first I thought my comparison might be unfounded, but I thought it was interesting none the less. But I'm now struggling to see real political differences in the two situations (although obviously there are many differences in scale of policy differences, and also important historical differences). I'd love to be proven wrong though. Certainly Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank is a difference. Any other major differences?

platinumrad 9y ago
You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in. -Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Israel would be quite the same? -Do you think not having a military/international recognition is the same for a faux city-state and for an occupied territory?? -Have you considered how living in a shithole and being denied economic opportunity due to not being able to travel freely might be just a tiny bit different from being mildly inconvenienced when leaving the financial capital of Asia for a developing country (yes, mainland China is very much a developing country) with a fifth of your GDP/capita?
- tuna-piano 9y ago
  I think my main point/question is really what is the concrete systematic difference between a "faux state" (as you refer to Hong Kong) and an occupied territory? Of course your points about the economic differences are correct. But are you saying that you agree that the current political situations aren't that different, that it's just the economic situation that's different? And wow, as you mention, the Hong Kong/China GDP Per capita difference is approximately 5x. Israelis have 12x the Palestinian GDP Per capita[1]. [1] https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+per+capita https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+...
salad77 9y ago
You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was a normal thing done by countries and that these were normal border policing activities at so-called 'border crossings'. But after reading your post, I now realize I was forced to be subjugated by an evil oppressor. At least, that is if I accept that an otherwise normal action at territorial separation points can be re-phrased in pejorative terms through re-naming of border crossings as the more sinister sounding 'checkpoints'. edit:typo.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Where did you cross that someone pointed a gun at you?
  - vic-traill 9y ago
    >where I was held by someone >carrying a gun Who said anything about someone pointing a gun?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- siidooloo 9y ago
  Until recently you could cross the border without a passport. It was pretty carefree. Why should'nt it be?
Chathamization 9y ago
I'd say that the biggest difference in terms of the political situation is that the people in Hong Kong are Chinese, and Hong Kong is part of China. Palestinians aren't Israeli (and Israel even talks about population transfers to remove Arab citizens), and Palestine isn't considered part of Israel (Israel's stance seems to be "we control this land and maybe some of it is part of Israel but maybe part of it isn't"). When you add to that things like the military conflict, blockades, settlements, etc., you can see that the situation is vastly different.
- tuna-piano 9y ago
  I don't know about that. 1.7 million (20%) Israeli citizens are Israeli Arabs, many of whom are close relatives of people in the West Bank.
  - Chathamization 9y ago
    But that's exactly the point. There's a huge difference between the Israeli Arab citizens and the Israeli Arabs who are non-citizens. People might talk about some of the issues faced by Israeli Arab citizens, but when they talk about the problem with the Palestinians they're specifically talking about the ones who are non-citizens. The Arabs who have citizenship are in a completely different situation, just like the Hong Kong residents are in a completely different situation since they have Chinese citizenship.
    - tuna-piano 9y ago
      I guess I don't understand. Hong Kong residents are not really functional Chinese citizens[1] (as I understand it) just like Palestinians are not functional Israeli citizens. Obviously the situations are not identical, but it does seem similar to me. Hong Kong residents need a permit to enter/work in China just like West Bank residents need a permit to enter/work in Israel (and something like 50k-100k Palestinian citizens (non-Israelis) have permits to work in Israel). [1]https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-Hong-Kong-and-Macau-have-a-right-to-move-to-mainland-China https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-Hong-Kong-and-Macau-have-...

platinumrad 9y ago

You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in. -Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Israel would be quite the same? -Do you think not having a military/international recognition is the same for a faux city-state and for an occupied territory?? -Have you considered how living in a shithole and being denied economic opportunity due to not being able to travel freely might be just a tiny bit different from being mildly inconvenienced when leaving the financial capital of Asia for a developing country (yes, mainland China is very much a developing country) with a fifth of your GDP/capita?

tuna-piano 9y ago
I think my main point/question is really what is the concrete systematic difference between a "faux state" (as you refer to Hong Kong) and an occupied territory? Of course your points about the economic differences are correct. But are you saying that you agree that the current political situations aren't that different, that it's just the economic situation that's different? And wow, as you mention, the Hong Kong/China GDP Per capita difference is approximately 5x. Israelis have 12x the Palestinian GDP Per capita[1]. [1] https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+per+capita https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+...

salad77 9y ago

You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was a normal thing done by countries and that these were normal border policing activities at so-called 'border crossings'. But after reading your post, I now realize I was forced to be subjugated by an evil oppressor. At least, that is if I accept that an otherwise normal action at territorial separation points can be re-phrased in pejorative terms through re-naming of border crossings as the more sinister sounding 'checkpoints'. edit:typo.

rayiner 9y ago
Where did you cross that someone pointed a gun at you?
- vic-traill 9y ago
  >where I was held by someone >carrying a gun Who said anything about someone pointing a gun?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
siidooloo 9y ago
Until recently you could cross the border without a passport. It was pretty carefree. Why should'nt it be?

Chathamization 9y ago

I'd say that the biggest difference in terms of the political situation is that the people in Hong Kong are Chinese, and Hong Kong is part of China. Palestinians aren't Israeli (and Israel even talks about population transfers to remove Arab citizens), and Palestine isn't considered part of Israel (Israel's stance seems to be "we control this land and maybe some of it is part of Israel but maybe part of it isn't"). When you add to that things like the military conflict, blockades, settlements, etc., you can see that the situation is vastly different.

tuna-piano 9y ago
I don't know about that. 1.7 million (20%) Israeli citizens are Israeli Arabs, many of whom are close relatives of people in the West Bank.
- Chathamization 9y ago
  But that's exactly the point. There's a huge difference between the Israeli Arab citizens and the Israeli Arabs who are non-citizens. People might talk about some of the issues faced by Israeli Arab citizens, but when they talk about the problem with the Palestinians they're specifically talking about the ones who are non-citizens. The Arabs who have citizenship are in a completely different situation, just like the Hong Kong residents are in a completely different situation since they have Chinese citizenship.
  - tuna-piano 9y ago
    I guess I don't understand. Hong Kong residents are not really functional Chinese citizens[1] (as I understand it) just like Palestinians are not functional Israeli citizens. Obviously the situations are not identical, but it does seem similar to me. Hong Kong residents need a permit to enter/work in China just like West Bank residents need a permit to enter/work in Israel (and something like 50k-100k Palestinian citizens (non-Israelis) have permits to work in Israel). [1]https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-Hong-Kong-and-Macau-have-a-right-to-move-to-mainland-China https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-Hong-Kong-and-Macau-have-...