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Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing u

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were still part of their old master countries? Hong Kong is obviously not in a terrible spot, but certainly many former colonies in Africa are. -I think it's clear that because China-Hong Kong have close economic ties, but China is much larger, that Hong Kong needs China much more than China needs Hong Kong[2,3]. Will this power dynamic further bias decisions in favor of Beijing? [1]http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/1871316/let-hong-kong-elect-its-own-leader-britains-david-cameron http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/1871316/... [2]http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/chn/ http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/chn/ [3]http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/hkg/ http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/hkg/

platinumrad 9y ago
>What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? ????? Hong Kong is wealthy, developed, and cosmopolitan and the West Bank/Gaza are not?? Israel and Palestine share the same landmass and China and Britain do not?? Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and Britian is not the most powerful nation in East Asia--in fact it's a nation in Western Europe??? Even when Britain was highly relevant in Asia they were only ever a colonial power while Israel as a nation is inextricably tied to the land that it shares with Palestine????? I'm really struggling to see where you're going with this one...
- tuna-piano 9y ago
  I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as West Bank) -Palestinians in the West Bank are separated from Israel, and are required to enter checkpoints to cross over. Hong Kong residents also need to go through (less invasive) checkpoints to go into China. At first I thought my comparison might be unfounded, but I thought it was interesting none the less. But I'm now struggling to see real political differences in the two situations (although obviously there are many differences in scale of policy differences, and also important historical differences). I'd love to be proven wrong though. Certainly Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank is a difference. Any other major differences?
  - platinumrad 9y ago
    You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in. -Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Israel would be quite the same? -Do you think not having a military/international recognition is the same for a faux city-state and for an occupied territory?? -Have you considered how living in a shithole and being denied economic opportunity due to not being able to travel freely might be just a tiny bit different from being mildly inconvenienced when leaving the financial capital of Asia for a developing country (yes, mainland China is very much a developing country) with a fifth of your GDP/capita?
    - tuna-piano 9y ago
      I think my main point/question is really what is the concrete systematic difference between a "faux state" (as you refer to Hong Kong) and an occupied territory? Of course your points about the economic differences are correct. But are you saying that you agree that the current political situations aren't that different, that it's just the economic situation that's different? And wow, as you mention, the Hong Kong/China GDP Per capita difference is approximately 5x. Israelis have 12x the Palestinian GDP Per capita[1]. [1] https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+per+capita https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+...
  - salad77 9y ago
    You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was a normal thing done by countries and that these were normal border policing activities at so-called 'border crossings'. But after reading your post, I now realize I was forced to be subjugated by an evil oppressor. At least, that is if I accept that an otherwise normal action at territorial separation points can be re-phrased in pejorative terms through re-naming of border crossings as the more sinister sounding 'checkpoints'. edit:typo.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Hong Kong was not wealthy, developed, or cosmopolitan to begin with. At the outset of the colonization the mean income was 1/3 that of Britain, a few decades later it was 4/3 that of Britain.
Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you. Just look at the concept of the independence or real autonomy some day of Vojvodina or Transylvania. Besides blaming such talk on a Hungarian irredentist plot, Serbs and Romanians from further south are completely aghast that some of their fellow Serbs and Romanians might not want to share the same country with them. There's a feeling that once an ethnic group has been gathered together into the same nation state, none of them have the right to leave it. Thus in China today, it's no surprise that the Han population in China (or at least its Han-controlled government) would be uncomfortable with the idea of the Han in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) going in a different direction.
- CogitoCogito 9y ago
  > Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you. "Generally" isn't the right word. "In mainland China" would be a better. In Europe there are separate countries that are more similar than different parts of China. It isn't even true amongst Han countries. Taiwan and Singapore are mostly Han and still want to remain independent countries from China. Also how does this logic apply to the parts of China that were not traditionally Han? China would never have taken them over using this logic. > There's a feeling that once an ethnic group has been gathered together into the same nation state, none of them have the right to leave it. Thus in China today, it's no surprise that the Han population in China (or at least its Han-controlled government) would be uncomfortable with the idea of the Han in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) going in a different direction. Hong Kong's destiny is clearly set, but your reference to Taiwan is a bit odd. Taiwan already "left". Taiwan's and mainland China have been independent countries since the end of the civil war (though many people play word games to pretend this isn't the case). So say it what it is. Mainland Chinese want to invade and take over Taiwan.
vkou 9y ago
>-Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? Governments of countries with secessionist movements. So, the United States, the United Kingdom, Spain, Russia, Ukraine, China, the list goes on. A few of them fought bloody civil wars over the question of self-determination, both in the distant, and not-so-distant past.
FabHK 9y ago
> -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? China is extremely protective of its territorial integrity. So, China, for starters.
tesators 9y ago
The problem is that Hong Kong was a colony for 100+ years so the effects of colonial mentality still remain. Like black American slaves fighting for the Confederacy, we see that as wrong.
- stale2002 9y ago
  Hong Kong is not fighting to get put back under British rule. They are fighting for self determination and to be rolled by themselves, instead of outside undemocratic dictators.

platinumrad 9y ago

>What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? ????? Hong Kong is wealthy, developed, and cosmopolitan and the West Bank/Gaza are not?? Israel and Palestine share the same landmass and China and Britain do not?? Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and Britian is not the most powerful nation in East Asia--in fact it's a nation in Western Europe??? Even when Britain was highly relevant in Asia they were only ever a colonial power while Israel as a nation is inextricably tied to the land that it shares with Palestine????? I'm really struggling to see where you're going with this one...

tuna-piano 9y ago
I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as West Bank) -Palestinians in the West Bank are separated from Israel, and are required to enter checkpoints to cross over. Hong Kong residents also need to go through (less invasive) checkpoints to go into China. At first I thought my comparison might be unfounded, but I thought it was interesting none the less. But I'm now struggling to see real political differences in the two situations (although obviously there are many differences in scale of policy differences, and also important historical differences). I'd love to be proven wrong though. Certainly Israeli settlement expansion in the West Bank is a difference. Any other major differences?
- platinumrad 9y ago
  You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in. -Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Israel would be quite the same? -Do you think not having a military/international recognition is the same for a faux city-state and for an occupied territory?? -Have you considered how living in a shithole and being denied economic opportunity due to not being able to travel freely might be just a tiny bit different from being mildly inconvenienced when leaving the financial capital of Asia for a developing country (yes, mainland China is very much a developing country) with a fifth of your GDP/capita?
  - tuna-piano 9y ago
    I think my main point/question is really what is the concrete systematic difference between a "faux state" (as you refer to Hong Kong) and an occupied territory? Of course your points about the economic differences are correct. But are you saying that you agree that the current political situations aren't that different, that it's just the economic situation that's different? And wow, as you mention, the Hong Kong/China GDP Per capita difference is approximately 5x. Israelis have 12x the Palestinian GDP Per capita[1]. [1] https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+per+capita https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+...
- salad77 9y ago
  You've made me think about this ! I recently had to pass between Canada and the US and I, too, was forced to enter a checkpoint where I was held by someone carrying a gun, who asked invasive questions about why I wanted to cross into a different territory and I had to satisfy the guard that I was not going to present any threat and that my purpose for travel was legitimate. Like a fool, I previously believed this was a normal thing done by countries and that these were normal border policing activities at so-called 'border crossings'. But after reading your post, I now realize I was forced to be subjugated by an evil oppressor. At least, that is if I accept that an otherwise normal action at territorial separation points can be re-phrased in pejorative terms through re-naming of border crossings as the more sinister sounding 'checkpoints'. edit:typo.
microcolonel 9y ago
Hong Kong was not wealthy, developed, or cosmopolitan to begin with. At the outset of the colonization the mean income was 1/3 that of Britain, a few decades later it was 4/3 that of Britain.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago

> Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you. Just look at the concept of the independence or real autonomy some day of Vojvodina or Transylvania. Besides blaming such talk on a Hungarian irredentist plot, Serbs and Romanians from further south are completely aghast that some of their fellow Serbs and Romanians might not want to share the same country with them. There's a feeling that once an ethnic group has been gathered together into the same nation state, none of them have the right to leave it. Thus in China today, it's no surprise that the Han population in China (or at least its Han-controlled government) would be uncomfortable with the idea of the Han in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) going in a different direction.

CogitoCogito 9y ago
> Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you. "Generally" isn't the right word. "In mainland China" would be a better. In Europe there are separate countries that are more similar than different parts of China. It isn't even true amongst Han countries. Taiwan and Singapore are mostly Han and still want to remain independent countries from China. Also how does this logic apply to the parts of China that were not traditionally Han? China would never have taken them over using this logic. > There's a feeling that once an ethnic group has been gathered together into the same nation state, none of them have the right to leave it. Thus in China today, it's no surprise that the Han population in China (or at least its Han-controlled government) would be uncomfortable with the idea of the Han in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) going in a different direction. Hong Kong's destiny is clearly set, but your reference to Taiwan is a bit odd. Taiwan already "left". Taiwan's and mainland China have been independent countries since the end of the civil war (though many people play word games to pretend this isn't the case). So say it what it is. Mainland Chinese want to invade and take over Taiwan.

vkou 9y ago

>-Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? Governments of countries with secessionist movements. So, the United States, the United Kingdom, Spain, Russia, Ukraine, China, the list goes on. A few of them fought bloody civil wars over the question of self-determination, both in the distant, and not-so-distant past.

FabHK 9y ago

> -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? China is extremely protective of its territorial integrity. So, China, for starters.

tesators 9y ago

The problem is that Hong Kong was a colony for 100+ years so the effects of colonial mentality still remain. Like black American slaves fighting for the Confederacy, we see that as wrong.

stale2002 9y ago
Hong Kong is not fighting to get put back under British rule. They are fighting for self determination and to be rolled by themselves, instead of outside undemocratic dictators.