4 ms·

> Most folks actually object to going back to novice status A good part of that reluctance is entirely rational. There are many dozens of programming language

> Most folks actually object to going back to novice status A good part of that reluctance is entirely rational. There are many dozens of programming languages that might be worth learning based on what communities of current users say about them. But you can't tell if they're really worth investing all over again what you already invested in other languages without, well, investing. It's a lemon market. Sellers know more than you about the true value of the car, err, language, but they have incentive to tell you it's great. Even worse, with programming languages even the most honest sellers might not know how their language really stacks up to the ones you already know because by symmetry they are underinformed too. For example, I tried getting into Smalltalk based on the intense hype coming from the community, but I came to suspect it really doesn't offer that much of an advantage over languages I know better and stopped. But maybe it really is better... I'll probably never know.

KirinDave 9y ago
I don't understand this idea you're putting forth. Well actually both ideas. 1. That there is a high risk here. 2. That the outcome could be bad. Neither of these seem true. I dislike Python the way I dislike wearing shoes that stealing too small, but I don't regret learning it. I regret working in it more and more over time.
- cronjobber 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    No I'm aware of these terms. I just don't get how they apply to skills acquisition. How does learning a language as part of a professional skills acquisition represent significant risk when the alternative you're proposing is not learning any new concepts at all? Your proposed cost model doesn't work when you're not choosing between N options and rather choosing between selection or no selection whatsoever. You're probably more interested in modeling it as an OSP.
    - cronjobber 9y ago
      I can't find talk about "high risk" in what I wrote. I can't seem to find where I'm "proposing not learning any new concepts at all." You seem to enjoy arguing against figments of your own imagination. I can't help you. Have a nice day.
      - KirinDave 9y ago
        You too, cronjobber. I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you weren't just throwing rocks at lisp and smalltalk and was trying to make an actual point about the cost of education.
        cronjobber 9y ago
        > giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you weren't just throwing rocks at lisp and smalltalk Nope, I don't believe you ever gave me the benefit of the doubt—your undoubted assumption that I was just throwing rocks perfectly explains your arguing style ;)
        KirinDave 9y ago
        My dude, you just inverted what I said after posting a snippy series of Wikipedia links and you're lecturing me about a bad attitude? Very well. You cannot help me, indeed.
dajt 9y ago
I agree with the risk/reward thing. I think you need to take into account how likely you are to use the language before investing a lot into it. I ignore smalltalk, ruby, perl, python, all that stuff. I don't want to use them, and somthing like smalltalk probably won't earn me money. Rust and D are similar. I've always thought D was interesting but I can't see it being worth my while to put the effort into it. Rust is just too different to bother with unless it becomes the new C++. I think swift might be worth a look, as long as Apple doesn't drop it like dylan. It is close enough to what I know that it might not take an age to learn. CL is good for nerd-cred, and gives a good leg up for Clojure. It probably also has some fundamental lesson to teach different to what I know instinctively. So I keep poking at it hoping it will click one day. Clojure seems like it would be a good thing to be able to claim knowledge of.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  I dunno if you find this worthwhile, but I have shipped code in about a dozen languages in my career, with languages like CL among them. For me, I really don't regret learning any of them, and they all had something to teach me that I've carried forward. For example, learning Common Lisp really let me internalize the concept of programming a meta-language to make my actual job easier (I later went on at that same job to write a very large, sophisticated code generator for a lot of humdrum deserializers). Learning Erlang helped me realize what a distributed system really is. Learning Java helped me understand what good concurrent threaded programs based around semaphores and queues could really god. Learning C# helped me realize there was a whole another level than that. Learning Clojure helped me realize we could use STM in the real world. I could go on. But all of these things are things I carry with me to this day. I don't do it for "nerd cred." I do it to grow as a software engineer.
  - dajt 9y ago
    "I do it to grow as a software engineer" That's why I keep poking at CL, and don't bother much with the others. I don't think I'll get much of a paradigm shift from D or python but if I ever grok CL properly I'll feel I've learned something.

KirinDave 9y ago

I don't understand this idea you're putting forth. Well actually both ideas. 1. That there is a high risk here. 2. That the outcome could be bad. Neither of these seem true. I dislike Python the way I dislike wearing shoes that stealing too small, but I don't regret learning it. I regret working in it more and more over time.

cronjobber 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
- KirinDave 9y ago
  No I'm aware of these terms. I just don't get how they apply to skills acquisition. How does learning a language as part of a professional skills acquisition represent significant risk when the alternative you're proposing is not learning any new concepts at all? Your proposed cost model doesn't work when you're not choosing between N options and rather choosing between selection or no selection whatsoever. You're probably more interested in modeling it as an OSP.
  - cronjobber 9y ago
    I can't find talk about "high risk" in what I wrote. I can't seem to find where I'm "proposing not learning any new concepts at all." You seem to enjoy arguing against figments of your own imagination. I can't help you. Have a nice day.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      You too, cronjobber. I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you weren't just throwing rocks at lisp and smalltalk and was trying to make an actual point about the cost of education.
      - cronjobber 9y ago
        > giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you weren't just throwing rocks at lisp and smalltalk Nope, I don't believe you ever gave me the benefit of the doubt—your undoubted assumption that I was just throwing rocks perfectly explains your arguing style ;)
        KirinDave 9y ago
        My dude, you just inverted what I said after posting a snippy series of Wikipedia links and you're lecturing me about a bad attitude? Very well. You cannot help me, indeed.

dajt 9y ago

I agree with the risk/reward thing. I think you need to take into account how likely you are to use the language before investing a lot into it. I ignore smalltalk, ruby, perl, python, all that stuff. I don't want to use them, and somthing like smalltalk probably won't earn me money. Rust and D are similar. I've always thought D was interesting but I can't see it being worth my while to put the effort into it. Rust is just too different to bother with unless it becomes the new C++. I think swift might be worth a look, as long as Apple doesn't drop it like dylan. It is close enough to what I know that it might not take an age to learn. CL is good for nerd-cred, and gives a good leg up for Clojure. It probably also has some fundamental lesson to teach different to what I know instinctively. So I keep poking at it hoping it will click one day. Clojure seems like it would be a good thing to be able to claim knowledge of.

KirinDave 9y ago
I dunno if you find this worthwhile, but I have shipped code in about a dozen languages in my career, with languages like CL among them. For me, I really don't regret learning any of them, and they all had something to teach me that I've carried forward. For example, learning Common Lisp really let me internalize the concept of programming a meta-language to make my actual job easier (I later went on at that same job to write a very large, sophisticated code generator for a lot of humdrum deserializers). Learning Erlang helped me realize what a distributed system really is. Learning Java helped me understand what good concurrent threaded programs based around semaphores and queues could really god. Learning C# helped me realize there was a whole another level than that. Learning Clojure helped me realize we could use STM in the real world. I could go on. But all of these things are things I carry with me to this day. I don't do it for "nerd cred." I do it to grow as a software engineer.
- dajt 9y ago
  "I do it to grow as a software engineer" That's why I keep poking at CL, and don't bother much with the others. I don't think I'll get much of a paradigm shift from D or python but if I ever grok CL properly I'll feel I've learned something.