7 ms·

Fortune cookie: a niche IT job in Eastern Europe will, with high probability, grant you the best life standards available worldwide.

paganel 9y ago
A great number of my Romanian programmer friends have already started to realize this and have stopped emigrating to other European countries. Yeah, moving to a place like London would most probably get you 2 or maximum 3 times the salary you are now getting, but you'd also have to pay rent which is 8 to 10 times higher in London, going out is outrageously expensive (7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's work is pure robbery), the general geographic area is quite nice around these parts (we have mountains, seaside, nice rivers for fishing), all in all they're doing quite ok. They won't ever be able to buy a $100,000+ car, a small boat or a small air-plane, like I see many of the SV engineers doing, but that's not that huge of a sacrifice to make. What's letting me down, personally, and what would convince me to finally take the plunge and emigrate to a Western European country is the health and the education system, which right now is in shambles in Romania (and I guess in Bulgaria, too).
- vminkov 9y ago
  Private health care is very neat and relative to your paycheck it's as affordable as in the Western world
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    The cult of and preference for private and premium health care services in Central/Eastern Europe are going to backslash terribly in couple of decades. Everything works well as long as the only contributors and users of it are young, healthy, employed people. Then those private health providers and insurers will simply disappear or bankrupt, and people will end up with disintegrated public healthcare if only they will be eligible for it at all.
    - restalis 9y ago
      The current state of things is not perfect, and the private healthcare probably has indeed the inherent problem you're describing, but it is also maybe the only thing that keeps the bulk of our medical doctors from emigrating to richer parts of Europe.
- baybal2 9y ago
  >7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's work is pure robbery 7 pounds beer is shi£ there, normal beers start at double that price
  - lewilewilewi 9y ago
    Even in central london you wouldn't be paying more than, say, £5.50 for a pint.
- jazzyk 9y ago
  >They won't ever be able to buy a $100,000+ car, a small boat or a small air-plane Except for the few lucky ones in SV who cash(ed) out in time, these toys are mostly bought on credit. Salaries are high, but so are the costs.
- vram22 9y ago
  >(7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub An Indian friend who lives in London (this was some years ago) told me that a single naan in London cost about 3 pounds then. Anecdote, of course; how well you manage there will also depend on how much pay you get.
dejv 9y ago
Yes, if you can manage to find even some 40k or 50k/year contract it will put you into about 5% of top earner in population in many central/east european countries. Prices are not as low as you might imagine, but it will give you a very nice life standards. You are not going to be able to afford luxury cars or other luxury items (those costs the same everywhere), but otherwise you would be set.
- Kaizeras 9y ago
  You will be rich in Eastern Europe but you'll still be considered average/poor in the developed world. Doesn't sound like a huge bargain to me.
  - jakubp 9y ago
    If they are local, they may not want to go abroad. The mindset here is that you begin to accumulate large amount of cash savings early in life (20s-30s), which is a huge boon. This gives you a number of benefits compared to your peers in less hot industries: you can buy an apartment and save on rent long term; you can start your own business; you sleep better not worrying about the future; you can negotiate better work conditions because you are not afraid you'll lose a job. The fact that you would not have the same position abroad (i.e. your cash savings are large locally but small if you lived in a rich country) is not a loss of any kind, it's just a fact that has no bearing on daily life.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    Even at the 50k/year contract (and you can get much more), you'll afford a mortgage on a big house, will afford eating out daily etc. You'll be way above average most people in Europe and probably in the US as well.
  - MagnumOpus 9y ago
    It is a huge bargain, because most of what people really want out of life are positional goods - the nicest house in the neighbourhood, status with the higher-class local women whether for tinder dates or relationships/marriage, cheap local staff to perform services (child care, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, cooks). You can afford none of these earning $100k in SV, but most of these earning $30k in Bucharest or Minsk. Of course if you are after material goods, the opposite is true - if you don't care about a nice house but want a new Tesla, a new iDevice every year, Hermes bags and a Cessna instead, then you are better of living in a flatshare or a shoebox in San Fran or the Valley.
mamon 9y ago
That's exactly my case: working as a niche IT specialist I earn about 4500 USD per month after taxes. It might not be much by SV standards, but in my neighborhood (which is a capital city of one of CE countries) it is top 2% income. It's enough that after maybe 5 years of saving I'm now able to buy 1 bedroom apartment in the city center WITH CASH. Buying 2-3 bedrooms would also be possible if I needed it and decided to live further from the city center. Add cheap healthcare, free education, overall low living cost and that's really hard to top. I get job offers from UK on regular basis, but never seriously considered it for that reason.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  8500 USD after taxes here :) (in Poland) I spend around $1000 per month of that.
  - galfarragem 9y ago
    Be thankful, you might probably afford the best living standards that is possible to afford as an employee... worldwide. I was an expat in Poland for some years (unfortunately non-STEM job) and with that money your only limit is yourself.
    - taway_1212 9y ago
      My plan is to retire in 5-7 years. I could do that sooner if I went into stock market (and prayed that the mythical 4% per year returns will be sustainable in the future) or became a landlord, but I prefer to play it safe.
      - Luc 9y ago
        Would you be retiring in Poland? What kind of monthly expense do you foresee? I'm also dreaming of doing this, though currently on the other side of the world.
        taway_1212 9y ago

paganel 9y ago

A great number of my Romanian programmer friends have already started to realize this and have stopped emigrating to other European countries. Yeah, moving to a place like London would most probably get you 2 or maximum 3 times the salary you are now getting, but you'd also have to pay rent which is 8 to 10 times higher in London, going out is outrageously expensive (7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's work is pure robbery), the general geographic area is quite nice around these parts (we have mountains, seaside, nice rivers for fishing), all in all they're doing quite ok. They won't ever be able to buy a $100,000+ car, a small boat or a small air-plane, like I see many of the SV engineers doing, but that's not that huge of a sacrifice to make. What's letting me down, personally, and what would convince me to finally take the plunge and emigrate to a Western European country is the health and the education system, which right now is in shambles in Romania (and I guess in Bulgaria, too).

vminkov 9y ago
Private health care is very neat and relative to your paycheck it's as affordable as in the Western world
- expertentipp 9y ago
  The cult of and preference for private and premium health care services in Central/Eastern Europe are going to backslash terribly in couple of decades. Everything works well as long as the only contributors and users of it are young, healthy, employed people. Then those private health providers and insurers will simply disappear or bankrupt, and people will end up with disintegrated public healthcare if only they will be eligible for it at all.
  - restalis 9y ago
    The current state of things is not perfect, and the private healthcare probably has indeed the inherent problem you're describing, but it is also maybe the only thing that keeps the bulk of our medical doctors from emigrating to richer parts of Europe.
baybal2 9y ago
>7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's work is pure robbery 7 pounds beer is shi£ there, normal beers start at double that price
- lewilewilewi 9y ago
  Even in central london you wouldn't be paying more than, say, £5.50 for a pint.
jazzyk 9y ago
>They won't ever be able to buy a $100,000+ car, a small boat or a small air-plane Except for the few lucky ones in SV who cash(ed) out in time, these toys are mostly bought on credit. Salaries are high, but so are the costs.
vram22 9y ago
>(7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub An Indian friend who lives in London (this was some years ago) told me that a single naan in London cost about 3 pounds then. Anecdote, of course; how well you manage there will also depend on how much pay you get.

dejv 9y ago

Yes, if you can manage to find even some 40k or 50k/year contract it will put you into about 5% of top earner in population in many central/east european countries. Prices are not as low as you might imagine, but it will give you a very nice life standards. You are not going to be able to afford luxury cars or other luxury items (those costs the same everywhere), but otherwise you would be set.

Kaizeras 9y ago
You will be rich in Eastern Europe but you'll still be considered average/poor in the developed world. Doesn't sound like a huge bargain to me.
- jakubp 9y ago
  If they are local, they may not want to go abroad. The mindset here is that you begin to accumulate large amount of cash savings early in life (20s-30s), which is a huge boon. This gives you a number of benefits compared to your peers in less hot industries: you can buy an apartment and save on rent long term; you can start your own business; you sleep better not worrying about the future; you can negotiate better work conditions because you are not afraid you'll lose a job. The fact that you would not have the same position abroad (i.e. your cash savings are large locally but small if you lived in a rich country) is not a loss of any kind, it's just a fact that has no bearing on daily life.
- taway_1212 9y ago
  Even at the 50k/year contract (and you can get much more), you'll afford a mortgage on a big house, will afford eating out daily etc. You'll be way above average most people in Europe and probably in the US as well.
- MagnumOpus 9y ago
  It is a huge bargain, because most of what people really want out of life are positional goods - the nicest house in the neighbourhood, status with the higher-class local women whether for tinder dates or relationships/marriage, cheap local staff to perform services (child care, cleaners, gardeners, drivers, cooks). You can afford none of these earning $100k in SV, but most of these earning $30k in Bucharest or Minsk. Of course if you are after material goods, the opposite is true - if you don't care about a nice house but want a new Tesla, a new iDevice every year, Hermes bags and a Cessna instead, then you are better of living in a flatshare or a shoebox in San Fran or the Valley.

mamon 9y ago

That's exactly my case: working as a niche IT specialist I earn about 4500 USD per month after taxes. It might not be much by SV standards, but in my neighborhood (which is a capital city of one of CE countries) it is top 2% income. It's enough that after maybe 5 years of saving I'm now able to buy 1 bedroom apartment in the city center WITH CASH. Buying 2-3 bedrooms would also be possible if I needed it and decided to live further from the city center. Add cheap healthcare, free education, overall low living cost and that's really hard to top. I get job offers from UK on regular basis, but never seriously considered it for that reason.

taway_1212 9y ago
8500 USD after taxes here :) (in Poland) I spend around $1000 per month of that.
- galfarragem 9y ago
  Be thankful, you might probably afford the best living standards that is possible to afford as an employee... worldwide. I was an expat in Poland for some years (unfortunately non-STEM job) and with that money your only limit is yourself.
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    My plan is to retire in 5-7 years. I could do that sooner if I went into stock market (and prayed that the mythical 4% per year returns will be sustainable in the future) or became a landlord, but I prefer to play it safe.
    - Luc 9y ago
      Would you be retiring in Poland? What kind of monthly expense do you foresee? I'm also dreaming of doing this, though currently on the other side of the world.
      - taway_1212 9y ago