4 ms·

Science-based games – a collaborative list

165 points by mettamage 9y ago

quickben 9y ago
Awesome!
stared 9y ago
List maintainter here. As the description says, you are invited to contribute! One question - do you prefer it Markdown way, or YAML + some searchable features, with screenshots? (Inspiration: http://ndres.me/kaggle-past-solutions/. http://ndres.me/kaggle-past-solutions/.) And thank you mettamage (vide https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661821)! :)
- JoeDaDude 9y ago
  Board games too? https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/206920/favourite-accurate-science-games https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/206920/favourite-accu...
  - stared 9y ago
    A good question. In general - yes, just game it clear in the description. In this case I will as SET. :)
  - XaspR8d 9y ago
    Yeah when I saw the title, my brain immediately went to Sierra Madre Games (particularly BIOS: Genesis and High Frontier), which are incredibly-designed simulation machines under the guise of tabletop games.
- jpfed 9y ago
  A couple CS games not mentioned: * Lightbot (covers much the same ground as Robozzle) * Manufactoria (explicitly manipulating Turing tapes)
  - stared 9y ago
    Please do Pull Requests. :)
lstodd 9y ago
Cool. I'd nominate Dwarf Fortress for the geology and anatomy bits, and all the rest, though I hesitate to classify that.
- stared 9y ago
  Or, AFAIK, you can build Turing-complete stuff. However, I prefer to avoid adding games so complex/advanced. Science has to be its main part of mechanics, rather than some subpart, as: "Any sufficiently advanced game is indistinguishable from a science-based game." (Saw somewhere on HN "Any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from a dedicated app." Yes, I know it's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws.)
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    > Saw somewhere on HN "Any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from a dedicated app." You mean, "any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from an operating system"? :). And the joke isn't that sentence - the real joke is that such a text editor can offer better UX than your regular operating system...
  - lstodd 9y ago
    I don't understand neither your objection to complexity, nor how to determine "the main part of mechanics" in a sufficiently complex game. What's the main part of the mechanics in DF? I play it for 7+ years and I have no idea. Most likely, there isn't any. Still I learned much - directly and by piqued interest - about geology - way before attempting to deliver magma to the surface. Years, in fact. I feel that such focus on "main part of mechanics" is wrong. It's like you'd accept a pool simulator because it's "main part" is the combination of perfectly elastic collision and conservation of momentum and reject KSP because "it's too complex". Of course it's complex. How do you expect to learn anything if it's not?
newswriter99 9y ago
Depression Quest has no business being on that list. "understanding depression (esp. for ones who never experienced it)" Even the description is elitist and pretentious. Everyone has experienced depression. It's an extremely common mental disorder. DQ is nothing more than a lackluster text-based visual novel (if you can call it that) cashing in on an easily exploitable group.
- mbel 9y ago
  > Even the description is elitist and pretentious. It may or may not be elitist and pretentious (what kind of art isn't?), but that has no influence on whether it is science based or not. > Everyone has experienced depression. Well, this is simply not true.
  - newswriter99 9y ago
    Have you played DQ? Where's the science behind it? If that counts as a science-based game then you might as well throw in Call of Duty so that people can "experience" the horrors of war or Darkest Dungeon so players can learn about PTSD.
    - mbel 9y ago
      I never said or implied that I believe it is science based. I highly doubt it is. However I hadn't played it so I'm not going to argue about that. What I said is that your argumentation is absolutely incorrect and wrong in this context.
      - newswriter99 9y ago
        So you're not debating the scientific-accuracy of DQ, or its merit whether it belongs on the list, you're merely debating whether the words I used were correct. Basically you're not taking part in the point of the original discussion?
        deleted 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
simias 9y ago
I really don't think those github lists lists are the right format. You want something were people can endorse some recommendations over others, maybe post comments etc... Here all the curation work falls back on the "maintainer", who has to decide where to draw the line when accepting or rejecting pull requests. If the maintainer/editor is very strict and reviews each PR thoroughly then the format is no different from any blog post where the author accepts feedback and recommendations through comments or email. If the maintainer/editor accepts most PRs with little review the list quickly becomes overcrowded and generally useless since it's not possible for the community at large to correct it. I guess one could easily design a website where you let users create resource lists based on certain topics and you let the community at large contribute recommendations and vote on them. You could even make money out of it by using affiliate links. I don't know if something like that exists already.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  Maybe they're not the right format, but they do work, and I don't think what you proposed would be better. Here are some benefits of the GitHub lists: 1. They use a very popular platform, on which most potential contributors have an account and probably use it daily. 2. They offer no-bullshit interface that presents you what you want to collaborate on and tools to do that, not trying to distract you with anything else. 3. Nobody is trying to make money off it, there are no affilate links, ads, or other monetizing bullshit, which is precisely why those lists are much more reliable and trustworthy than what would be posted on a hypothetical service you propose. I agree that GitHub doesn't offer all the things such lists could use (like voting), but it's close enough, and to move those lists elsewhere you'd have to solve the network effect of #1.
  - simias 9y ago
    >1. They use a very popular platform, on which most potential contributors have an account and probably use it daily. I'd argue that "science-based game" could interest many more people than the subset of github users. If it was a list of programming resources then maybe, but even then many coders don't have a github account. I wager that "community curated list of resources" has a much bigger potential user base than github. "A list of resources to learn guitar", "a list of resources to learn Chinese history", "a list of portuguese language telenovelas" etc... >2. They offer no-bullshit interface that presents you what you want to collaborate on and tools to do that, not trying to distract you with anything else. Uh, dealing with pull requests is a no-bullshit interface to add an entry to a list? What percentage of the population do you think understands what a pull request is, let alone how to create one? What if there's a conflict and the maintainer asks you to merge and update it? That's not exactly facebook-level friendly right there. >3. Nobody is trying to make money off it, there are no affiliate links, ads, or other monetizing bullshit, which is precisely why those lists are much more reliable and trustworthy than what would be posted on a hypothetical service you propose. How so? If the lists become untrustworthy people will stop using it and the website loses money. There's no incentive for the website to mess with the lists themselves. And if you're thinking about "corruption" to bump certain resources to the top it could happen regardless of the rest, and it could be even more tempting if you don't actually have an other way to make "legit" money.
tmbsundar 9y ago
Great work and initiative. A quick suggestion: The bullets seem to be at the same level for the name + link of the game and the characteristics of the game. This gets a little confusing as in some cases I thought the second or third bullet point is also another game but lacks hyperlink - thus tried clicking them. Hence, if you can make them as sub-headings/ sub-bullets or may be within parentheses or some visual differentiation, it will be great.
mettamage 9y ago
Wow, amazing how this blew up! My own list is here [1]. It's a bit of a mess. My focus is slightly different. I focus on educational/entertaining. It's also in Dutch/English. I think lists like these are important. I've noticed when I was studying game psychology (master @ University of Amsterdam) that teachers have too little of an idea on how to create educational games that are also quite entertaining. Allow me to translate the most interesting entries of my list: __Educational Games That Are Entertaining (sorted by perceived entertainment, in my experience -- yes it is subjective)__ Parable of the Polygons: already on the Github list The Bézier Game: Loved this game! I learned about how to use the Bezier tool. Factorio: entertainment game. I found out it really really really helps for programmatic thinking because secretly you write functions all the time and think about the inputs and outputs of systems. My CodeCombat friend learned a thing or two about scalability issues as well through this game. Miegakure: not out yet, but 4D experiments! -- expected perceived entertainment Fragments of Him: experience how it is to lose your loved one Flexbog Froggy: CSS flexbox game CSS Diner: learn CSS selectors Vim Adventures: the whole reason this HN submission blew up CodeCombat: learn coding, a friend of my played it before he went to a coding school. In his opinion, it doesn't teach you coding all the way -- it's because you use their own API and cannot relate it to the real world fully -- but it gives you an amazing head start. Ovelin.com: guitar hero IRL (also piano's now) SineRider: learn about sine equations Re-mission: makes the disease cancer discussable and allows people to learn about it (targeted at patients) and reminds them to take their medicine -- I didn't play this but heard good things about it. __Games that are educational if you have the mindset__ There are entertainment games (i.e. the educational games that I listed above) but by being a serious player you can make more games educational. Here are my favorite examples (I didn't play WoW but I read a paper about it). Strictly speaking Factorio should be on this list, but in my opinion the creator cuts himself short by not stating it's an educational game. World of Warcraft (in a language that you don't know): research showed it teaches you language provided you have 100 to 200 hours of basics in already [2]. Flappy Bird: learn all about why you get frustrated. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l04gq4HyBsWNqYoNsLJ8MMU-Zd2nv3DQRgOP3CxL9W0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l04gq4HyBsWNqYoNsLJ8MMU-... [2] I can't find the paper now via Google Scholar, I'll add a comment after a couple of days. I'll be at a location where I can access the paper in physical form. Edit: I'll gather all the links of the games later. Edit 2: I miss games like Civ (primed me to look more into politics -- serious player list) and Minecraft (both educational and serious player list). I miss a lot of games actually.

165 points by mettamage 9y ago

Awesome!

List maintainter here. As the description says, you are invited to contribute! One question - do you prefer it Markdown way, or YAML + some searchable features, with screenshots? (Inspiration: http://ndres.me/kaggle-past-solutions/. http://ndres.me/kaggle-past-solutions/.) And thank you mettamage (vide https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14661821)! :)

JoeDaDude 9y ago
Board games too? https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/206920/favourite-accurate-science-games https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/206920/favourite-accu...
- stared 9y ago
  A good question. In general - yes, just game it clear in the description. In this case I will as SET. :)
- XaspR8d 9y ago
  Yeah when I saw the title, my brain immediately went to Sierra Madre Games (particularly BIOS: Genesis and High Frontier), which are incredibly-designed simulation machines under the guise of tabletop games.
jpfed 9y ago
A couple CS games not mentioned: * Lightbot (covers much the same ground as Robozzle) * Manufactoria (explicitly manipulating Turing tapes)
- stared 9y ago
  Please do Pull Requests. :)

lstodd 9y ago

Cool. I'd nominate Dwarf Fortress for the geology and anatomy bits, and all the rest, though I hesitate to classify that.

stared 9y ago
Or, AFAIK, you can build Turing-complete stuff. However, I prefer to avoid adding games so complex/advanced. Science has to be its main part of mechanics, rather than some subpart, as: "Any sufficiently advanced game is indistinguishable from a science-based game." (Saw somewhere on HN "Any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from a dedicated app." Yes, I know it's from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws.)
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  > Saw somewhere on HN "Any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from a dedicated app." You mean, "any sufficiently advanced text editor is indistinguishable from an operating system"? :). And the joke isn't that sentence - the real joke is that such a text editor can offer better UX than your regular operating system...
- lstodd 9y ago
  I don't understand neither your objection to complexity, nor how to determine "the main part of mechanics" in a sufficiently complex game. What's the main part of the mechanics in DF? I play it for 7+ years and I have no idea. Most likely, there isn't any. Still I learned much - directly and by piqued interest - about geology - way before attempting to deliver magma to the surface. Years, in fact. I feel that such focus on "main part of mechanics" is wrong. It's like you'd accept a pool simulator because it's "main part" is the combination of perfectly elastic collision and conservation of momentum and reject KSP because "it's too complex". Of course it's complex. How do you expect to learn anything if it's not?

newswriter99 9y ago

Depression Quest has no business being on that list. "understanding depression (esp. for ones who never experienced it)" Even the description is elitist and pretentious. Everyone has experienced depression. It's an extremely common mental disorder. DQ is nothing more than a lackluster text-based visual novel (if you can call it that) cashing in on an easily exploitable group.

mbel 9y ago
> Even the description is elitist and pretentious. It may or may not be elitist and pretentious (what kind of art isn't?), but that has no influence on whether it is science based or not. > Everyone has experienced depression. Well, this is simply not true.
- newswriter99 9y ago
  Have you played DQ? Where's the science behind it? If that counts as a science-based game then you might as well throw in Call of Duty so that people can "experience" the horrors of war or Darkest Dungeon so players can learn about PTSD.
  - mbel 9y ago
    I never said or implied that I believe it is science based. I highly doubt it is. However I hadn't played it so I'm not going to argue about that. What I said is that your argumentation is absolutely incorrect and wrong in this context.
    - newswriter99 9y ago
      So you're not debating the scientific-accuracy of DQ, or its merit whether it belongs on the list, you're merely debating whether the words I used were correct. Basically you're not taking part in the point of the original discussion?
      - deleted 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

simias 9y ago

I really don't think those github lists lists are the right format. You want something were people can endorse some recommendations over others, maybe post comments etc... Here all the curation work falls back on the "maintainer", who has to decide where to draw the line when accepting or rejecting pull requests. If the maintainer/editor is very strict and reviews each PR thoroughly then the format is no different from any blog post where the author accepts feedback and recommendations through comments or email. If the maintainer/editor accepts most PRs with little review the list quickly becomes overcrowded and generally useless since it's not possible for the community at large to correct it. I guess one could easily design a website where you let users create resource lists based on certain topics and you let the community at large contribute recommendations and vote on them. You could even make money out of it by using affiliate links. I don't know if something like that exists already.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
Maybe they're not the right format, but they do work, and I don't think what you proposed would be better. Here are some benefits of the GitHub lists: 1. They use a very popular platform, on which most potential contributors have an account and probably use it daily. 2. They offer no-bullshit interface that presents you what you want to collaborate on and tools to do that, not trying to distract you with anything else. 3. Nobody is trying to make money off it, there are no affilate links, ads, or other monetizing bullshit, which is precisely why those lists are much more reliable and trustworthy than what would be posted on a hypothetical service you propose. I agree that GitHub doesn't offer all the things such lists could use (like voting), but it's close enough, and to move those lists elsewhere you'd have to solve the network effect of #1.
- simias 9y ago
  >1. They use a very popular platform, on which most potential contributors have an account and probably use it daily. I'd argue that "science-based game" could interest many more people than the subset of github users. If it was a list of programming resources then maybe, but even then many coders don't have a github account. I wager that "community curated list of resources" has a much bigger potential user base than github. "A list of resources to learn guitar", "a list of resources to learn Chinese history", "a list of portuguese language telenovelas" etc... >2. They offer no-bullshit interface that presents you what you want to collaborate on and tools to do that, not trying to distract you with anything else. Uh, dealing with pull requests is a no-bullshit interface to add an entry to a list? What percentage of the population do you think understands what a pull request is, let alone how to create one? What if there's a conflict and the maintainer asks you to merge and update it? That's not exactly facebook-level friendly right there. >3. Nobody is trying to make money off it, there are no affiliate links, ads, or other monetizing bullshit, which is precisely why those lists are much more reliable and trustworthy than what would be posted on a hypothetical service you propose. How so? If the lists become untrustworthy people will stop using it and the website loses money. There's no incentive for the website to mess with the lists themselves. And if you're thinking about "corruption" to bump certain resources to the top it could happen regardless of the rest, and it could be even more tempting if you don't actually have an other way to make "legit" money.

tmbsundar 9y ago

Great work and initiative. A quick suggestion: The bullets seem to be at the same level for the name + link of the game and the characteristics of the game. This gets a little confusing as in some cases I thought the second or third bullet point is also another game but lacks hyperlink - thus tried clicking them. Hence, if you can make them as sub-headings/ sub-bullets or may be within parentheses or some visual differentiation, it will be great.

mettamage 9y ago

Wow, amazing how this blew up! My own list is here [1]. It's a bit of a mess. My focus is slightly different. I focus on educational/entertaining. It's also in Dutch/English. I think lists like these are important. I've noticed when I was studying game psychology (master @ University of Amsterdam) that teachers have too little of an idea on how to create educational games that are also quite entertaining. Allow me to translate the most interesting entries of my list: __Educational Games That Are Entertaining (sorted by perceived entertainment, in my experience -- yes it is subjective)__ Parable of the Polygons: already on the Github list The Bézier Game: Loved this game! I learned about how to use the Bezier tool. Factorio: entertainment game. I found out it really really really helps for programmatic thinking because secretly you write functions all the time and think about the inputs and outputs of systems. My CodeCombat friend learned a thing or two about scalability issues as well through this game. Miegakure: not out yet, but 4D experiments! -- expected perceived entertainment Fragments of Him: experience how it is to lose your loved one Flexbog Froggy: CSS flexbox game CSS Diner: learn CSS selectors Vim Adventures: the whole reason this HN submission blew up CodeCombat: learn coding, a friend of my played it before he went to a coding school. In his opinion, it doesn't teach you coding all the way -- it's because you use their own API and cannot relate it to the real world fully -- but it gives you an amazing head start. Ovelin.com: guitar hero IRL (also piano's now) SineRider: learn about sine equations Re-mission: makes the disease cancer discussable and allows people to learn about it (targeted at patients) and reminds them to take their medicine -- I didn't play this but heard good things about it. __Games that are educational if you have the mindset__ There are entertainment games (i.e. the educational games that I listed above) but by being a serious player you can make more games educational. Here are my favorite examples (I didn't play WoW but I read a paper about it). Strictly speaking Factorio should be on this list, but in my opinion the creator cuts himself short by not stating it's an educational game. World of Warcraft (in a language that you don't know): research showed it teaches you language provided you have 100 to 200 hours of basics in already [2]. Flappy Bird: learn all about why you get frustrated. [1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l04gq4HyBsWNqYoNsLJ8MMU-Zd2nv3DQRgOP3CxL9W0 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l04gq4HyBsWNqYoNsLJ8MMU-... [2] I can't find the paper now via Google Scholar, I'll add a comment after a couple of days. I'll be at a location where I can access the paper in physical form. Edit: I'll gather all the links of the games later. Edit 2: I miss games like Civ (primed me to look more into politics -- serious player list) and Minecraft (both educational and serious player list). I miss a lot of games actually.