6 ms·

Why is property on the blockchain nonsensical?

vertex-four 9y ago
Property only exists insofar as someone enforces it. Whether that's yourself, your Government, or your local militia that you pay. If you can't prevent someone from taking it, it's not your property. So... why put notice that you own a piece of property on the blockchain, if you're already putting trust in someone to enforce your property? Why not just ask them to publish notice that you own the property?
- cdoxsey 9y ago
  Yes but if you've ever purchased property the titling process can be really expensive. A block chain provides a way "to publish notice" that's indelible so could lower costs. In countries with poor property rights it could also help bootstrap the system.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    Yes but never forget the $5 wrench solution to crypto problems.
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    You can "publish notice" by putting a sign outside your front door. The reason the titling process is expensive is because your Government requires it, not because publishing notice in some reasonable manner is inherently expensive. (We publish notice of a lot of things just by sticking an ad in the paper as it is, property is a weird one.) What issues is the titling process solving that cannot be solved in any way without a blockchain?
    - kaibr 9y ago
      You called property "weird" so I wonder whether you are aware that property is weird exactly because of the double spending problem. A land title registry gives you double spend protection, not just irrevocable publication. Your point of course stands, since you're trusting someone with enforcement, you might as well trust them with double spend protection. I'd say decentralized irrevocable publication (e.g. certificate transparency) is much cheaper than decentralized double spend protection.
- darawk 9y ago
  It's a trustless, reliable system for transferring and tracking ownership of property. Yes, you still need government to enforce it. Think of it like unforgeable, hard to steal, uncorruptible, easy to transfer land deeds.
  - vertex-four 9y ago
    Why don't you trust the Government to track it if you trust the Government to enforce it? That is, why do you need "trustless" if you need to trust someone further down the line anyway?
    - fiatjaf 9y ago
      You don't need the government, you need the society at all. These things can be done in a lot of ways, all them compatible with a trusted ledger that keeps track unambiguously of who owns what. Notary services were for a long time independent of the State, they may still be in some countries and places. This is indeed something in which a global decentralized trusted ledger can help.
      - vertex-four 9y ago
        See my "property ownership == enforcement" comment above. If you yourself are enforcing your monopoly over your property - you can stick a sign outside your front door saying "trespassers will be shot" and be done with it. If it's a militia, have them do whatever they think is reasonable notice. If you're depending on your local community, stick it on a community noticeboard. The question is, exactly why do you need a trustless ledger in order to post notice that you're willing to enforce your monopoly? What problem, precisely, does a blockchain solve?
        darawk 9y ago
        You don't need to solve every problem to solve some problems. Blockchains don't address enforcement for real property. They do address everything else. And everything else is a big deal.

Property only exists insofar as someone enforces it. Whether that's yourself, your Government, or your local militia that you pay. If you can't prevent someone from taking it, it's not your property. So... why put notice that you own a piece of property on the blockchain, if you're already putting trust in someone to enforce your property? Why not just ask them to publish notice that you own the property?

cdoxsey 9y ago
Yes but if you've ever purchased property the titling process can be really expensive. A block chain provides a way "to publish notice" that's indelible so could lower costs. In countries with poor property rights it could also help bootstrap the system.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Yes but never forget the $5 wrench solution to crypto problems.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  You can "publish notice" by putting a sign outside your front door. The reason the titling process is expensive is because your Government requires it, not because publishing notice in some reasonable manner is inherently expensive. (We publish notice of a lot of things just by sticking an ad in the paper as it is, property is a weird one.) What issues is the titling process solving that cannot be solved in any way without a blockchain?
  - kaibr 9y ago
    You called property "weird" so I wonder whether you are aware that property is weird exactly because of the double spending problem. A land title registry gives you double spend protection, not just irrevocable publication. Your point of course stands, since you're trusting someone with enforcement, you might as well trust them with double spend protection. I'd say decentralized irrevocable publication (e.g. certificate transparency) is much cheaper than decentralized double spend protection.
darawk 9y ago
It's a trustless, reliable system for transferring and tracking ownership of property. Yes, you still need government to enforce it. Think of it like unforgeable, hard to steal, uncorruptible, easy to transfer land deeds.
- vertex-four 9y ago
  Why don't you trust the Government to track it if you trust the Government to enforce it? That is, why do you need "trustless" if you need to trust someone further down the line anyway?
  - fiatjaf 9y ago
    You don't need the government, you need the society at all. These things can be done in a lot of ways, all them compatible with a trusted ledger that keeps track unambiguously of who owns what. Notary services were for a long time independent of the State, they may still be in some countries and places. This is indeed something in which a global decentralized trusted ledger can help.
    - vertex-four 9y ago
      See my "property ownership == enforcement" comment above. If you yourself are enforcing your monopoly over your property - you can stick a sign outside your front door saying "trespassers will be shot" and be done with it. If it's a militia, have them do whatever they think is reasonable notice. If you're depending on your local community, stick it on a community noticeboard. The question is, exactly why do you need a trustless ledger in order to post notice that you're willing to enforce your monopoly? What problem, precisely, does a blockchain solve?
      - darawk 9y ago
        You don't need to solve every problem to solve some problems. Blockchains don't address enforcement for real property. They do address everything else. And everything else is a big deal.