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> Now the German government is considering legislation that would allow social networks such as Facebook to be fined up to 50 million euros if they don’t remove

> Now the German government is considering legislation that would allow social networks such as Facebook to be fined up to 50 million euros if they don’t remove hate speech and fake news quickly enough. As an American I can't imagine being arrested for speaking my mind about a race or religion whether it's considered hate speech or not. It's just unfathomable. Thanks to our forefathers for putting free speech on such a pedestal and our government for upholding it for 200+ years. This can't end well shutting people up like this. > German police raided 36 homes over social media hate speech https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/22/german-police-raided-36-homes-social-media-hate-speech/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/22/german-police-raided-36-...

tnzn 9y ago
From the very begining of free speech theorization, limits such as hate speech were mentionned, just saying.
- throwanem 9y ago
  I'd like to see a specific citation here, please.
- Natsu 9y ago
  Mentioned how? In which countries? In the USA, 'hate speech' is simply not a category of unprotected speech under the 1st amendment as it's understood today: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... https://www.popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-censorship-tropes-in-the-medias-coverage-of-free-speech-controversies/ https://www.popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-... An example of a category that is not protected in the USA would be death threats or false & defamatory statements.
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tpush 9y ago
Different cultures, different laws, different values. I know Americans mostly are very absolutist when it comes to free speech and its limitations. However consider that other countries do have different priorities or a different understanding of freedom and/or how to preserve it (see positive vs. negative freedom). Restrictions on speech do not necessarily turn a country fascist, just like any restriction on general freedom.
WaxProlix 9y ago
I'd love to see how quickly an ISIS recruitment rally would be squashed in any city in the USA with nobody shedding a tear over the abuse of freedom of speech.
- teacup50 9y ago
  "Those Demanding Free Speech Limits to Fight ISIS Pose a Greater Threat to U.S. Than ISIS" (The Intercept): https://theintercept.com/2015/12/29/those-demanding-free-speech-limits-to-fight-isis-pose-a-greater-threat-to-u-s-than-isis/ https://theintercept.com/2015/12/29/those-demanding-free-spe...
- JBReefer 9y ago
  The ACLU famously defended the KKK's right to have parades/rallies. Both have a pretty good history of killing Americans and saying horrible things. This country exists because of freedom of speech and press, and it really does matter to us.
  - vkou 9y ago
    America has historically cared very little for the Americans the KKK killed. Judging by the commentary that arises whenever BLM is mentioned, it still doesn't.
    - eehee 9y ago
      When BLM is mentioned, I often see people criticize their methods, the underlying ideology of some members and their claims to truth. I have never seen anyone not care about black people being killed. There is, of course, a possibility that I'm living in an opaque filter bubble and that the racist hordes are just outside. If I am, please pop that bubble and show me the truth.
    - watwut 9y ago
      To be fair to ACLU, they have good record defending speech no matter who talk. The did care about civil rights groups speech as much as KKK.
beedogs 9y ago
As an American, I'm perfectly happy with what Germany is doing and wish Americans were less absolutist about free speech.
- throwanem 9y ago
  As another American, I'm happy you are free to express that opinion, and also happy so few share it.
coldtea 9y ago
>As an American I can't imagine being arrested for speaking my mind about a race or religion whether it's considered hate speech or not. Yeah, you might just get fired from your (unrelated) job over an internet mob storm.
- philovivero 9y ago
  Admittedly, that's bad, and pretty devastating. But I think compared to having the gestapo kick in your door, take you away in cuffs, and no-one sees you for 90 days is just a little more egregious.
  - cr1895 9y ago
    Gestapo? Really? That's being needlessly hyperbolic, and somewhat ridiculous considering the raids concerned support for National Socialism. In the instance you presented no one was arrested. "The operation focused in particular on the German state of Bavaria, where according to police sources, a secret Facebook group had posted messages glamorizing National Socialism, which is illegal in Germany." http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-launch-mass-raids-over-online-hate-speech/a-19398612 http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-launch-mass-raids-over-on...
skocznymroczny 9y ago
Unfortunately that's the reality for Western/Northern Europe right now. In countries like Germany or Sweden, speaking against other people on Twitter/Facebook, critizing immigration policies can get you ostracized, fired from your job and even taken into custody for 'hate speech'.
sgift 9y ago
Germany learned the hard way that letting people "speak their mind" does not always lead to great outcomes. The Weimar Republic actually had the things you wanted, it even allowed parties to be part of the parliament while wanting to eliminate the Republic. The result was Nazi Germany. We decided against repeating this. Different histories lead to different results.
- dmichulke 9y ago
  The problem here is that Nazi Germany also disallowed people to "speak their mind". So if you say free speech caused Nazi Germany, I might as well say: Lack of free speech let Nazi Germany (and even more so the Holocaust) go on for such a long time. So is limiting free speech really the solution? I think we're setting a dangerous precedent.
  - pluma 9y ago
    The status quo is that we're not Nazi Germany. The status quo is therefore that we're at the risk of becoming Nazi Germany. This is the case in modern Germany as much as it is the case in the US or the UK. The German answer to that is to look at what allowed us to become Nazi Germany last time and to avoid that. Some of the resulting limitations are questionable (e.g. the parliamentary 5% hurdle), some are not (e.g. treating incitement of violence and racial hatred as a crime). If you rally a crowd, step on a podium and tell them to "gas the Jews" or "kill all white men" or "hunt down and murder Edward Snowden", you're facing jail time. Because you're intentionally motivating people to commit serious crimes. Whether you're Joe Blow or a major politician. FWIW I do disagree that censorship is the wrong solution although many politicians in Germany demand it because it's an easy win. Deleting incitement may stop the hatred from spreading but it doesn't address the cause. Even worse: it hides a crime and interferes with criminal investigations. Social media companies' response to meeting the legal demands in Germany is to either block content preemptively or to basically give you a button that lets you opt into not seeing it. That doesn't follow the spirit of the law, let alone the letter of it.
    - dmichulke 9y ago

tnzn 9y ago

From the very begining of free speech theorization, limits such as hate speech were mentionned, just saying.

throwanem 9y ago
I'd like to see a specific citation here, please.
Natsu 9y ago
Mentioned how? In which countries? In the USA, 'hate speech' is simply not a category of unprotected speech under the 1st amendment as it's understood today: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201... https://www.popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-censorship-tropes-in-the-medias-coverage-of-free-speech-controversies/ https://www.popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-... An example of a category that is not protected in the USA would be death threats or false & defamatory statements.
- deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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tpush 9y ago

Different cultures, different laws, different values. I know Americans mostly are very absolutist when it comes to free speech and its limitations. However consider that other countries do have different priorities or a different understanding of freedom and/or how to preserve it (see positive vs. negative freedom). Restrictions on speech do not necessarily turn a country fascist, just like any restriction on general freedom.

WaxProlix 9y ago

I'd love to see how quickly an ISIS recruitment rally would be squashed in any city in the USA with nobody shedding a tear over the abuse of freedom of speech.

teacup50 9y ago
"Those Demanding Free Speech Limits to Fight ISIS Pose a Greater Threat to U.S. Than ISIS" (The Intercept): https://theintercept.com/2015/12/29/those-demanding-free-speech-limits-to-fight-isis-pose-a-greater-threat-to-u-s-than-isis/ https://theintercept.com/2015/12/29/those-demanding-free-spe...
JBReefer 9y ago
The ACLU famously defended the KKK's right to have parades/rallies. Both have a pretty good history of killing Americans and saying horrible things. This country exists because of freedom of speech and press, and it really does matter to us.
- vkou 9y ago
  America has historically cared very little for the Americans the KKK killed. Judging by the commentary that arises whenever BLM is mentioned, it still doesn't.
  - eehee 9y ago
    When BLM is mentioned, I often see people criticize their methods, the underlying ideology of some members and their claims to truth. I have never seen anyone not care about black people being killed. There is, of course, a possibility that I'm living in an opaque filter bubble and that the racist hordes are just outside. If I am, please pop that bubble and show me the truth.
  - watwut 9y ago
    To be fair to ACLU, they have good record defending speech no matter who talk. The did care about civil rights groups speech as much as KKK.

beedogs 9y ago

As an American, I'm perfectly happy with what Germany is doing and wish Americans were less absolutist about free speech.

throwanem 9y ago
As another American, I'm happy you are free to express that opinion, and also happy so few share it.

coldtea 9y ago

>As an American I can't imagine being arrested for speaking my mind about a race or religion whether it's considered hate speech or not. Yeah, you might just get fired from your (unrelated) job over an internet mob storm.

philovivero 9y ago
Admittedly, that's bad, and pretty devastating. But I think compared to having the gestapo kick in your door, take you away in cuffs, and no-one sees you for 90 days is just a little more egregious.
- cr1895 9y ago
  Gestapo? Really? That's being needlessly hyperbolic, and somewhat ridiculous considering the raids concerned support for National Socialism. In the instance you presented no one was arrested. "The operation focused in particular on the German state of Bavaria, where according to police sources, a secret Facebook group had posted messages glamorizing National Socialism, which is illegal in Germany." http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-launch-mass-raids-over-online-hate-speech/a-19398612 http://www.dw.com/en/german-police-launch-mass-raids-over-on...

skocznymroczny 9y ago

Unfortunately that's the reality for Western/Northern Europe right now. In countries like Germany or Sweden, speaking against other people on Twitter/Facebook, critizing immigration policies can get you ostracized, fired from your job and even taken into custody for 'hate speech'.

sgift 9y ago

Germany learned the hard way that letting people "speak their mind" does not always lead to great outcomes. The Weimar Republic actually had the things you wanted, it even allowed parties to be part of the parliament while wanting to eliminate the Republic. The result was Nazi Germany. We decided against repeating this. Different histories lead to different results.

dmichulke 9y ago
The problem here is that Nazi Germany also disallowed people to "speak their mind". So if you say free speech caused Nazi Germany, I might as well say: Lack of free speech let Nazi Germany (and even more so the Holocaust) go on for such a long time. So is limiting free speech really the solution? I think we're setting a dangerous precedent.
- pluma 9y ago
  The status quo is that we're not Nazi Germany. The status quo is therefore that we're at the risk of becoming Nazi Germany. This is the case in modern Germany as much as it is the case in the US or the UK. The German answer to that is to look at what allowed us to become Nazi Germany last time and to avoid that. Some of the resulting limitations are questionable (e.g. the parliamentary 5% hurdle), some are not (e.g. treating incitement of violence and racial hatred as a crime). If you rally a crowd, step on a podium and tell them to "gas the Jews" or "kill all white men" or "hunt down and murder Edward Snowden", you're facing jail time. Because you're intentionally motivating people to commit serious crimes. Whether you're Joe Blow or a major politician. FWIW I do disagree that censorship is the wrong solution although many politicians in Germany demand it because it's an easy win. Deleting incitement may stop the hatred from spreading but it doesn't address the cause. Even worse: it hides a crime and interferes with criminal investigations. Social media companies' response to meeting the legal demands in Germany is to either block content preemptively or to basically give you a button that lets you opt into not seeing it. That doesn't follow the spirit of the law, let alone the letter of it.
  - dmichulke 9y ago