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It's actually a great example of how freedom of speech is not a binary. It's possible to curtail some forms of expression, such as hate-speech, without turning

It's actually a great example of how freedom of speech is not a binary. It's possible to curtail some forms of expression, such as hate-speech, without turning the country into an autocratic regime that punishes thought crimes. Lots of Americans like to think that as soon as you moderately curtail freedom of expression, you've crossed some threshold and you're now North Korea. Turns out that with a strong judiciary (that isn't corrupted by money and politics) it's possible to have reasonable constraints on expression!

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syshum 9y ago
Except Free Speech is a Binary, and that is exactly what Canada is doing,... punishing thought crimes. >Lots of Americans like to think that as soon as you moderately curtail freedom of expression, you've crossed some threshold You have crossed a Threshold >and you're now North Korea. Nice strawman you have there..... >it's possible to have reasonable constraints on expression! Proving you do not have or support Free Speech, you support "Reasonably Restricted Speech" which is not the same thing
- 2preserve 9y ago
  > Proving you do not have or support Free Speech, you support "Reasonably Restricted Speech" which is not the same thing See, this is exactly what I said. I didn't need to build a strawman. You did it for me. I'm free to run down the street swinging your fists, but if I swing my fist into someone's face and break their nose, that's bad. I think we can all agree on that, right? What if I told you that swinging my fists was a form of "artistic expression", or was part of my religion? Should I be free to express myself at the expense of the rest of society?
  - icebraining 9y ago
    If I claim that red is my favorite color, but I actually prefer orange, does that I mean I get to call orange "red"? The fact that restricting the verbal equivalent of "swinging fists into others' faces" may be a good thing doesn't mean that can be redefined as free speech, because everyone has their own idea of what these reasonable restrictions are. Free speech is free speech, even if it's in practice a bad idea.
- naasking 9y ago
  > Except Free Speech is a Binary, and that is exactly what Canada is doing,... punishing thought crimes. A "spoken crime" is not a "thought crime". There's no chip in your head, you're free to think whatever you like, even if you're not necessarily free to say anything you like.
  - tomcam 9y ago
    "thought crime" is a term from Orwell's 1984--worth a read
  - djrogers 9y ago
    You cross the line into thought crimes when you ascribe intent and presume to know the state of mind and thought process behind a given piece of speech.
    - naasking 9y ago
      The intent isn't relevant to actually breaking the law in this case. At best, it might be relevant to sentencing. So no thought crime.
    - Forlien 9y ago
      Hmm, do you think there are some things you can say that would classify as an action you could be arrested for rather than an idea? For example, yelling "Fire!" in a crowded building, offering a bribe, and threatening someone all seem like actions you could be arrested for in the USA where the only evidence is your speech (or a recording of it). Would these qualify as thought crimes to you and if so do you think there is a developed nation with free speech where they are accepted?
      - djrogers 9y ago
        How about threatening violence against a member of a protected class? Is the crime worse because of that persons protected status, even if that didn’t matter to the perpetrator?
- bquinlan 9y ago
  I disagree that free speech is binary. For example, I think that a country can be said to have free speech if it disallows people from promising to compensate someone in exchange for murder.
  - djrogers 9y ago
    Free Speech that is restricted is no longer Free, so how can it not be binary? Either you're free to say things - including politically repugnant things - or you are not free to do so.
protomyth 9y ago
What exactly is your definition of hate-speech? I fail to see how a tasteless joke makes the cut. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/mike-ward-comedian-ugly-jeremy-gabriel-freedom-of-speech https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/mike-w... History has been pretty clear that curtailment of rights leads to government overreach and leaders using such power against people they don't like.
- 2preserve 9y ago
  Are tasteless jokes really something that needs to be protected? Sure, if he was making a joke about the government being corrupt , or the over-reach of courts (ironic), I would be on your side. But are you really gonna die on this hill? You will fight for the right of comedians to insult the personal appearance of disabled people? I don't think it contributes much to the democratic discourse. And don't give me any of those "slippery slope" arguments.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Just to point out, the long dominance of the restrictive “Clear and Present Danger” rule in US free speech analysis was ended in favor of the “inciting imminent lawless conduct” rule (which makes mere theoretically dangerous speech still protected) in case in which KKK leader was challenging a conviction for televised advocacy of “revengeance”. I don't think most people that are happy about the rule would find the particular actor or action sympathetic; you fight for free speech not because the actor is popular or sympathetic, but because you might need it when you and your actions are not popular or sympathetic.
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Yes, and here is a whole movie to explain why: http://canwetakeajoke.com/ http://canwetakeajoke.com/ > But are you really gonna die on this hill? Yep, its tasteless, but the alternative allow folks like you to edit what I read and eventually think. I rather deal with the filth then the sterile world of what is acceptable to you with only approved targets of derision and protest. Being in fear of every word uttered to be outside the bounds for some person who might hear would be the purest kind of horror. Freedom of speech is there to protect the ugly not shine the widely accepted. > And don't give me any of those "slippery slope" arguments. Why not? Since that is the whole course of history. People don't lose rights overnight, it comes one drop at a time.
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syshum 9y ago

Except Free Speech is a Binary, and that is exactly what Canada is doing,... punishing thought crimes. >Lots of Americans like to think that as soon as you moderately curtail freedom of expression, you've crossed some threshold You have crossed a Threshold >and you're now North Korea. Nice strawman you have there..... >it's possible to have reasonable constraints on expression! Proving you do not have or support Free Speech, you support "Reasonably Restricted Speech" which is not the same thing

2preserve 9y ago
> Proving you do not have or support Free Speech, you support "Reasonably Restricted Speech" which is not the same thing See, this is exactly what I said. I didn't need to build a strawman. You did it for me. I'm free to run down the street swinging your fists, but if I swing my fist into someone's face and break their nose, that's bad. I think we can all agree on that, right? What if I told you that swinging my fists was a form of "artistic expression", or was part of my religion? Should I be free to express myself at the expense of the rest of society?
- icebraining 9y ago
  If I claim that red is my favorite color, but I actually prefer orange, does that I mean I get to call orange "red"? The fact that restricting the verbal equivalent of "swinging fists into others' faces" may be a good thing doesn't mean that can be redefined as free speech, because everyone has their own idea of what these reasonable restrictions are. Free speech is free speech, even if it's in practice a bad idea.
naasking 9y ago
> Except Free Speech is a Binary, and that is exactly what Canada is doing,... punishing thought crimes. A "spoken crime" is not a "thought crime". There's no chip in your head, you're free to think whatever you like, even if you're not necessarily free to say anything you like.
- tomcam 9y ago
  "thought crime" is a term from Orwell's 1984--worth a read
- djrogers 9y ago
  You cross the line into thought crimes when you ascribe intent and presume to know the state of mind and thought process behind a given piece of speech.
  - naasking 9y ago
    The intent isn't relevant to actually breaking the law in this case. At best, it might be relevant to sentencing. So no thought crime.
  - Forlien 9y ago
    Hmm, do you think there are some things you can say that would classify as an action you could be arrested for rather than an idea? For example, yelling "Fire!" in a crowded building, offering a bribe, and threatening someone all seem like actions you could be arrested for in the USA where the only evidence is your speech (or a recording of it). Would these qualify as thought crimes to you and if so do you think there is a developed nation with free speech where they are accepted?
    - djrogers 9y ago
      How about threatening violence against a member of a protected class? Is the crime worse because of that persons protected status, even if that didn’t matter to the perpetrator?
bquinlan 9y ago
I disagree that free speech is binary. For example, I think that a country can be said to have free speech if it disallows people from promising to compensate someone in exchange for murder.
- djrogers 9y ago
  Free Speech that is restricted is no longer Free, so how can it not be binary? Either you're free to say things - including politically repugnant things - or you are not free to do so.

protomyth 9y ago

What exactly is your definition of hate-speech? I fail to see how a tasteless joke makes the cut. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/mike-ward-comedian-ugly-jeremy-gabriel-freedom-of-speech https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/mike-w... History has been pretty clear that curtailment of rights leads to government overreach and leaders using such power against people they don't like.

2preserve 9y ago
Are tasteless jokes really something that needs to be protected? Sure, if he was making a joke about the government being corrupt , or the over-reach of courts (ironic), I would be on your side. But are you really gonna die on this hill? You will fight for the right of comedians to insult the personal appearance of disabled people? I don't think it contributes much to the democratic discourse. And don't give me any of those "slippery slope" arguments.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Just to point out, the long dominance of the restrictive “Clear and Present Danger” rule in US free speech analysis was ended in favor of the “inciting imminent lawless conduct” rule (which makes mere theoretically dangerous speech still protected) in case in which KKK leader was challenging a conviction for televised advocacy of “revengeance”. I don't think most people that are happy about the rule would find the particular actor or action sympathetic; you fight for free speech not because the actor is popular or sympathetic, but because you might need it when you and your actions are not popular or sympathetic.
- protomyth 9y ago
  Yes, and here is a whole movie to explain why: http://canwetakeajoke.com/ http://canwetakeajoke.com/ > But are you really gonna die on this hill? Yep, its tasteless, but the alternative allow folks like you to edit what I read and eventually think. I rather deal with the filth then the sterile world of what is acceptable to you with only approved targets of derision and protest. Being in fear of every word uttered to be outside the bounds for some person who might hear would be the purest kind of horror. Freedom of speech is there to protect the ugly not shine the widely accepted. > And don't give me any of those "slippery slope" arguments. Why not? Since that is the whole course of history. People don't lose rights overnight, it comes one drop at a time.

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