7 ms·

Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.

nickez 9y ago
Because you don't benefit from half of your population if you only teach men to code. The same applies to other minorities. Of course it is essential that we can get everyone to code so that everyone can contribute in the future when a lot of work will require coding skills.
- duality 9y ago
  The claim is that only men are taught to code?
- nickez 9y ago
  > The claim is that only men are taught to code? At least at the university I went to it is something like 5-10% women in computer science and electrical engineering.
  - goodplay 9y ago
    The university I attended had females comprise 90% of all students in computer science, and over half of all students in engineering fields. Anecdotes are fun.
- dhf17 9y ago
  Frankly, the white male privledge guilt message is getting old. Programming is mostly self taught, through hours of social isolation researching and seeking it out. Short of writing politically neutral docs that focus on the subject at hand, there is no need to evangelize. It seems more arrogant than anything.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    It's not supposed to be about guilt. It's supposed to be about empathy towards those who don't get that privilege. (Side note: the word "privilege" is really poorly chosen, because in practice it has a strong implication of blame and guilt assignment in our culture.)
    - teacup50 9y ago
      Starting when I was twelve, I worked for multiple summers doing landscaping to buy a computer; mowing yards, hauling wood bark, dirt, laying sod, ripping up sod. It was hard, sweaty, backbreaking labor, especially for a 12 year old; I did it because I wanted to program. I used that computer to teach myself to program, and got my first real programming job from someone who I'd never previously met in person, over IRC. According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless, and my position on the coarse-grained intersectional hierarchy of privilege. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware, or why they get to decide where everyone fits on that hierarchy on the basis of traits they deem important.
      - int_19h 9y ago
        > According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless Yup. That's because as a white male, you are still "privileged". I'm using quotes here, because, as mentioned earlier, I don't think the word is a good fit for the concept it's supposed to describe. Privilege implies something above and beyond what you are normally entitled to; something that you don't necessarily deserve (I think that's the main reason why it elicits such a strong negative emotional response in people). As a white male, you are not getting such things - you're getting normal treatment, in a sense that no-one is making negative assumptions about your intellect, your ability to learn etc on the basis of your race or gender (they may well be making them based on other traits, and you can be underprivileged on the corresponding other axes). The problem is that others do get negative points solely on account of their gender, color of their skin, or even their name alone (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html). So you don't really have a "white privilege", but rather they have a "non-white handicap". It's not your fault - but because of said privilege, you're in a better position to try to correct it somewhat. > I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware Try to do what you can to even things out. I'm not even necessarily talking about politics, but just day to day things. Have you ever seen a female colleague being talked over in a meeting in your presence? Try to steer the discussion to give her voice. Ever been on a hiring interview loop, and heard dismissive racial or cultural stereotyping of a candidate based on their name alone ("I wonder if he codes like an Indian" etc)? Point it out. And so on.
- barrkel 9y ago
  I don't know any good programmers who were taught.
  - douche 9y ago
    Maybe there's some magical place where you can actually learn how to program from someone else, but for the rest of us, there's no substitute for solitary hours grinding away actually doing the work.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    I would rather say: I don't know any good programmers who weren't self-taught.
  - sacado2 9y ago
    How do you know they weren't taught ?
jlebar 9y ago
Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is. Have a read-through on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki, or any of the other excellent references online.

nickez 9y ago

Because you don't benefit from half of your population if you only teach men to code. The same applies to other minorities. Of course it is essential that we can get everyone to code so that everyone can contribute in the future when a lot of work will require coding skills.

duality 9y ago
The claim is that only men are taught to code?
nickez 9y ago
> The claim is that only men are taught to code? At least at the university I went to it is something like 5-10% women in computer science and electrical engineering.
- goodplay 9y ago
  The university I attended had females comprise 90% of all students in computer science, and over half of all students in engineering fields. Anecdotes are fun.
dhf17 9y ago
Frankly, the white male privledge guilt message is getting old. Programming is mostly self taught, through hours of social isolation researching and seeking it out. Short of writing politically neutral docs that focus on the subject at hand, there is no need to evangelize. It seems more arrogant than anything.
- int_19h 9y ago
  It's not supposed to be about guilt. It's supposed to be about empathy towards those who don't get that privilege. (Side note: the word "privilege" is really poorly chosen, because in practice it has a strong implication of blame and guilt assignment in our culture.)
  - teacup50 9y ago
    Starting when I was twelve, I worked for multiple summers doing landscaping to buy a computer; mowing yards, hauling wood bark, dirt, laying sod, ripping up sod. It was hard, sweaty, backbreaking labor, especially for a 12 year old; I did it because I wanted to program. I used that computer to teach myself to program, and got my first real programming job from someone who I'd never previously met in person, over IRC. According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless, and my position on the coarse-grained intersectional hierarchy of privilege. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware, or why they get to decide where everyone fits on that hierarchy on the basis of traits they deem important.
    - int_19h 9y ago
      > According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless Yup. That's because as a white male, you are still "privileged". I'm using quotes here, because, as mentioned earlier, I don't think the word is a good fit for the concept it's supposed to describe. Privilege implies something above and beyond what you are normally entitled to; something that you don't necessarily deserve (I think that's the main reason why it elicits such a strong negative emotional response in people). As a white male, you are not getting such things - you're getting normal treatment, in a sense that no-one is making negative assumptions about your intellect, your ability to learn etc on the basis of your race or gender (they may well be making them based on other traits, and you can be underprivileged on the corresponding other axes). The problem is that others do get negative points solely on account of their gender, color of their skin, or even their name alone (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html). So you don't really have a "white privilege", but rather they have a "non-white handicap". It's not your fault - but because of said privilege, you're in a better position to try to correct it somewhat. > I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware Try to do what you can to even things out. I'm not even necessarily talking about politics, but just day to day things. Have you ever seen a female colleague being talked over in a meeting in your presence? Try to steer the discussion to give her voice. Ever been on a hiring interview loop, and heard dismissive racial or cultural stereotyping of a candidate based on their name alone ("I wonder if he codes like an Indian" etc)? Point it out. And so on.
barrkel 9y ago
I don't know any good programmers who were taught.
- douche 9y ago
  Maybe there's some magical place where you can actually learn how to program from someone else, but for the rest of us, there's no substitute for solitary hours grinding away actually doing the work.
- jhasse 9y ago
  I would rather say: I don't know any good programmers who weren't self-taught.
- sacado2 9y ago
  How do you know they weren't taught ?

jlebar 9y ago

Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is. Have a read-through on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki, or any of the other excellent references online.