5 ms·

Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. What does changing them actually solve? Are women really p

• emilk 9y ago
  Many small trivial things can add up. Also, if we cater to the status quo ("the vast majority of programmers"), the status quo is less likely to change.
  • teacup50 9y ago
    Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.
    • nickez 9y ago
      Because you don't benefit from half of your population if you only teach men to code. The same applies to other minorities. Of course it is essential that we can get everyone to code so that everyone can contribute in the future when a lot of work will require coding skills.
      • duality 9y ago
        The claim is that only men are taught to code?
      • nickez 9y ago
        > The claim is that only men are taught to code? At least at the university I went to it is something like 5-10% women in computer science and electrical engineering.
        • goodplay 9y ago
          The university I attended had females comprise 90% of all students in computer science, and over half of all students in engineering fields. Anecdotes are fun.
      • dhf17 9y ago
        Frankly, the white male privledge guilt message is getting old. Programming is mostly self taught, through hours of social isolation researching and seeking it out. Short of writing politically neutral docs that focus on the subject at hand, there is no need to evangelize. It seems more arrogant than anything.
        • int_19h 9y ago
          It's not supposed to be about guilt. It's supposed to be about empathy towards those who don't get that privilege. (Side note: the word "privilege" is really poorly chosen, because in practice it has a strong implication of blame and guilt assignment in our culture.)
          • teacup50 9y ago
            Starting when I was twelve, I worked for multiple summers doing landscaping to buy a computer; mowing yards, hauling wood bark, dirt, laying sod, ripping up sod. It was hard, sweaty, backbreaking labor, especially for a 12 year old; I did it because I wanted to program. I used that computer to teach myself to program, and got my first real programming job from someone who I'd never previously met in person, over IRC. According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless, and my position on the coarse-grained intersectional hierarchy of privilege. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware, or why they get to decide where everyone fits on that hierarchy on the basis of traits they deem important.
            • int_19h 9y ago
              > According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless Yup. That's because as a white male, you are still "privileged". I'm using quotes here, because, as mentioned earlier, I don't think the word is a good fit for the concept it's supposed to describe. Privilege implies something above and beyond what you are normally entitled to; something that you don't necessarily deserve (I think that's the main reason why it elicits such a strong negative emotional response in people). As a white male, you are not getting such things - you're getting normal treatment, in a sense that no-one is making negative assumptions about your intellect, your ability to learn etc on the basis of your race or gender (they may well be making them based on other traits, and you can be underprivileged on the corresponding other axes). The problem is that others do get negative points solely on account of their gender, color of their skin, or even their name alone (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html). So you don't really have a "white privilege", but rather they have a "non-white handicap". It's not your fault - but because of said privilege, you're in a better position to try to correct it somewhat. > I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware Try to do what you can to even things out. I'm not even necessarily talking about politics, but just day to day things. Have you ever seen a female colleague being talked over in a meeting in your presence? Try to steer the discussion to give her voice. Ever been on a hiring interview loop, and heard dismissive racial or cultural stereotyping of a candidate based on their name alone ("I wonder if he codes like an Indian" etc)? Point it out. And so on.
      • barrkel 9y ago
        I don't know any good programmers who were taught.
        • douche 9y ago
          Maybe there's some magical place where you can actually learn how to program from someone else, but for the rest of us, there's no substitute for solitary hours grinding away actually doing the work.
        • jhasse 9y ago
          I would rather say: I don't know any good programmers who weren't self-taught.
        • sacado2 9y ago
          How do you know they weren't taught ?
    • jlebar 9y ago
      Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is. Have a read-through on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki, or any of the other excellent references online.
• conradev 9y ago
  > Are women really put off of computing because of that? Yes.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• geofft 9y ago
  > Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. I'm not following that logic - if a reason to use male pronouns is that current programmers are male, then does it not follow that, yes, it actually matters? (And if it doesn't matter, why care? Why not let the people who want to use other pronouns use other pronouns?)
  • kmicklas 9y ago
    Such logic will not convince such sexists, sadly.
• DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
  > What does changing them actually solve? By itself not much: but I see it as a necessary-but-insufficient step, in much the same way it is necessary to remove public statues deifying US Civil War Confederate "heroes" (I'd prefer the term "traitor"...). > Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial. Not "because of that" directly, no - of course not, but projecting an inclusive image is important to attract people who might not otherwise be interest for fear of not being a "cultural fit" despite having the skills. (Most) people are not robots: there is a very human need to feel accepted and fit-in.
  • collyw 9y ago
    (Assuming that you are a male) would you be in any way bothered if everything was changed to exclusively female pronouns?
    • DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
      I imagine I would feel the same way as the first wave of male nurses would have in the postwar years - with textbooks and instructional materials, even the job titles: Sister and Matron, reflecting a strong female bias. I quickly went through the Wikipedia article on Men in Nursing just now to write this reply and it's already having me reconsider how I perceived gender bias in industry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing
• jlebar 9y ago
  > Are women really put off of computing because [people use male pronouns for programmers, assuming they're male]? This doesn't need to be a hypothetical question. You could find a woman programmer and ask her. (A woman might even chime in on this thread, although given the ridiculous level of toxicity on this thread, if I were anything other than a het cis white man, I'd be staying the hell away from here.) Or you could even Google it, and find some woman programmers talking about this. Here are a few references to get you started. https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/ https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/