6 ms·

I see it as a way of investigating possible unconscious bias or even hostility towards minorities in the Rust developer community - from easily fixable things s

I see it as a way of investigating possible unconscious bias or even hostility towards minorities in the Rust developer community - from easily fixable things such as male-bias in documentation (e.g. examples using male pronouns disproportionately) - to vitriolic sexist and other abuse in chat and forum groups. Fortunately the Rust community isn't GamerGate, but if we can eliminate those attitudes sooner, then that's in Rust's long-term interests.

collyw 9y ago
Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. What does changing them actually solve? Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial.
- emilk 9y ago
  Many small trivial things can add up. Also, if we cater to the status quo ("the vast majority of programmers"), the status quo is less likely to change.
  - teacup50 9y ago
    Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.
    - nickez 9y ago
      Because you don't benefit from half of your population if you only teach men to code. The same applies to other minorities. Of course it is essential that we can get everyone to code so that everyone can contribute in the future when a lot of work will require coding skills.
      - duality 9y ago
        The claim is that only men are taught to code?
      - nickez 9y ago
        > The claim is that only men are taught to code? At least at the university I went to it is something like 5-10% women in computer science and electrical engineering.
        goodplay 9y ago
        The university I attended had females comprise 90% of all students in computer science, and over half of all students in engineering fields. Anecdotes are fun.
      - dhf17 9y ago
        Frankly, the white male privledge guilt message is getting old. Programming is mostly self taught, through hours of social isolation researching and seeking it out. Short of writing politically neutral docs that focus on the subject at hand, there is no need to evangelize. It seems more arrogant than anything.
        int_19h 9y ago
        It's not supposed to be about guilt. It's supposed to be about empathy towards those who don't get that privilege. (Side note: the word "privilege" is really poorly chosen, because in practice it has a strong implication of blame and guilt assignment in our culture.)
        teacup50 9y ago
        Starting when I was twelve, I worked for multiple summers doing landscaping to buy a computer; mowing yards, hauling wood bark, dirt, laying sod, ripping up sod. It was hard, sweaty, backbreaking labor, especially for a 12 year old; I did it because I wanted to program. I used that computer to teach myself to program, and got my first real programming job from someone who I'd never previously met in person, over IRC. According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless, and my position on the coarse-grained intersectional hierarchy of privilege. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware, or why they get to decide where everyone fits on that hierarchy on the basis of traits they deem important.
    - jlebar 9y ago
      Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is. Have a read-through on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki, or any of the other excellent references online.
- conradev 9y ago
  > Are women really put off of computing because of that? Yes.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- geofft 9y ago
  > Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. I'm not following that logic - if a reason to use male pronouns is that current programmers are male, then does it not follow that, yes, it actually matters? (And if it doesn't matter, why care? Why not let the people who want to use other pronouns use other pronouns?)
  - kmicklas 9y ago
    Such logic will not convince such sexists, sadly.
- DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
  > What does changing them actually solve? By itself not much: but I see it as a necessary-but-insufficient step, in much the same way it is necessary to remove public statues deifying US Civil War Confederate "heroes" (I'd prefer the term "traitor"...). > Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial. Not "because of that" directly, no - of course not, but projecting an inclusive image is important to attract people who might not otherwise be interest for fear of not being a "cultural fit" despite having the skills. (Most) people are not robots: there is a very human need to feel accepted and fit-in.
  - collyw 9y ago
    (Assuming that you are a male) would you be in any way bothered if everything was changed to exclusively female pronouns?
    - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
      I imagine I would feel the same way as the first wave of male nurses would have in the postwar years - with textbooks and instructional materials, even the job titles: Sister and Matron, reflecting a strong female bias. I quickly went through the Wikipedia article on Men in Nursing just now to write this reply and it's already having me reconsider how I perceived gender bias in industry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing
- jlebar 9y ago
  > Are women really put off of computing because [people use male pronouns for programmers, assuming they're male]? This doesn't need to be a hypothetical question. You could find a woman programmer and ask her. (A woman might even chime in on this thread, although given the ridiculous level of toxicity on this thread, if I were anything other than a het cis white man, I'd be staying the hell away from here.) Or you could even Google it, and find some woman programmers talking about this. Here are a few references to get you started. https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/ https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/
bauerd 9y ago
Can you point to an instance of offensive behaviour towards minorities in the Rust community? I'm not involved in Rust, and I have no strongly held opinions on the topic at hand. However I cannot recall coming across the abuse you describe on GitHub's issue trackers, nor in the IRC channels I frequent, nor somewhere else. Sure, just because I don't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Same goes for biased wording in the docs. A common line of argument is that "being more welcoming" will lead to more contributors and thus to more diverse perspectives. Browsing through Rust's documentation and bug tracker alone makes me skeptical of that. I can't find a thing that will turn away someone interested in Rust. There's definitely sexism in the industry, no question. But I have yet to see someone present numbers of how e.g. their Code of Conduct lead to more contributors. I doubt that any of these undertakings do, unless the project really does have an asshole community. But Rust surely doesn't.
- emilk 9y ago
  Some people will simply not engage in a project if there is no set code of conduct for it. The logic presumable being that even if there is no problem now, problem may come in the future, and a agreed upon code of conduct can nip such problems in the bud.
  - teacup50 9y ago
    Or create problems, since they give a huge amount of leverage to those interested in dominating others through purely institutional/bureaucratic power games.
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      Which is why I go out of my way to avoid projects that feel the need to wave their codes of conduct like flags. No matter how egalitarian your code of conduct is, there's no substitute for not being a shitty person.
      - galangalalgol 9y ago
curun1r 9y ago
> a way of investigating possible unconscious bias There's other ways to address that too. I've used https://textio.com/ https://textio.com/ in the past for job ads and it's really interesting to see examples of how seemingly minor word choices can land depending on the reader. It'd be a relatively simple task to run documentation, RFCs and Github comments of core team members through such a service and automatically generate a report (which wouldn't have to be released publicly, but could be sent to authors to aid in using more inclusive language going forward). The thing that's really difficult to do is to be inclusive in a way that doesn't feel exclusive towards people who aren't in the target demographics. Using these types of automated tools doesn't have that downside. Has anything like this been suggested/done by the people working on Rust?

collyw 9y ago

Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. What does changing them actually solve? Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial.

emilk 9y ago
Many small trivial things can add up. Also, if we cater to the status quo ("the vast majority of programmers"), the status quo is less likely to change.
- teacup50 9y ago
  Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.
  - nickez 9y ago
    Because you don't benefit from half of your population if you only teach men to code. The same applies to other minorities. Of course it is essential that we can get everyone to code so that everyone can contribute in the future when a lot of work will require coding skills.
    - duality 9y ago
      The claim is that only men are taught to code?
    - nickez 9y ago
      > The claim is that only men are taught to code? At least at the university I went to it is something like 5-10% women in computer science and electrical engineering.
      - goodplay 9y ago
        The university I attended had females comprise 90% of all students in computer science, and over half of all students in engineering fields. Anecdotes are fun.
    - dhf17 9y ago
      Frankly, the white male privledge guilt message is getting old. Programming is mostly self taught, through hours of social isolation researching and seeking it out. Short of writing politically neutral docs that focus on the subject at hand, there is no need to evangelize. It seems more arrogant than anything.
      - int_19h 9y ago
        It's not supposed to be about guilt. It's supposed to be about empathy towards those who don't get that privilege. (Side note: the word "privilege" is really poorly chosen, because in practice it has a strong implication of blame and guilt assignment in our culture.)
        teacup50 9y ago
        Starting when I was twelve, I worked for multiple summers doing landscaping to buy a computer; mowing yards, hauling wood bark, dirt, laying sod, ripping up sod. It was hard, sweaty, backbreaking labor, especially for a 12 year old; I did it because I wanted to program. I used that computer to teach myself to program, and got my first real programming job from someone who I'd never previously met in person, over IRC. According to today's identity politics, I need to be aware of my privilege as a white male nonetheless, and my position on the coarse-grained intersectional hierarchy of privilege. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do with that once aware, or why they get to decide where everyone fits on that hierarchy on the basis of traits they deem important.
  - jlebar 9y ago
    Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is. Have a read-through on http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki, or any of the other excellent references online.
conradev 9y ago
> Are women really put off of computing because of that? Yes.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
geofft 9y ago
> Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. I'm not following that logic - if a reason to use male pronouns is that current programmers are male, then does it not follow that, yes, it actually matters? (And if it doesn't matter, why care? Why not let the people who want to use other pronouns use other pronouns?)
- kmicklas 9y ago
  Such logic will not convince such sexists, sadly.
DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
> What does changing them actually solve? By itself not much: but I see it as a necessary-but-insufficient step, in much the same way it is necessary to remove public statues deifying US Civil War Confederate "heroes" (I'd prefer the term "traitor"...). > Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial. Not "because of that" directly, no - of course not, but projecting an inclusive image is important to attract people who might not otherwise be interest for fear of not being a "cultural fit" despite having the skills. (Most) people are not robots: there is a very human need to feel accepted and fit-in.
- collyw 9y ago
  (Assuming that you are a male) would you be in any way bothered if everything was changed to exclusively female pronouns?
  - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
    I imagine I would feel the same way as the first wave of male nurses would have in the postwar years - with textbooks and instructional materials, even the job titles: Sister and Matron, reflecting a strong female bias. I quickly went through the Wikipedia article on Men in Nursing just now to write this reply and it's already having me reconsider how I perceived gender bias in industry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_nursing
jlebar 9y ago
> Are women really put off of computing because [people use male pronouns for programmers, assuming they're male]? This doesn't need to be a hypothetical question. You could find a woman programmer and ask her. (A woman might even chime in on this thread, although given the ridiculous level of toxicity on this thread, if I were anything other than a het cis white man, I'd be staying the hell away from here.) Or you could even Google it, and find some woman programmers talking about this. Here are a few references to get you started. https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/ https://geekfeminism.org/tag/pronouns/

bauerd 9y ago

Can you point to an instance of offensive behaviour towards minorities in the Rust community? I'm not involved in Rust, and I have no strongly held opinions on the topic at hand. However I cannot recall coming across the abuse you describe on GitHub's issue trackers, nor in the IRC channels I frequent, nor somewhere else. Sure, just because I don't notice it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Same goes for biased wording in the docs. A common line of argument is that "being more welcoming" will lead to more contributors and thus to more diverse perspectives. Browsing through Rust's documentation and bug tracker alone makes me skeptical of that. I can't find a thing that will turn away someone interested in Rust. There's definitely sexism in the industry, no question. But I have yet to see someone present numbers of how e.g. their Code of Conduct lead to more contributors. I doubt that any of these undertakings do, unless the project really does have an asshole community. But Rust surely doesn't.

emilk 9y ago
Some people will simply not engage in a project if there is no set code of conduct for it. The logic presumable being that even if there is no problem now, problem may come in the future, and a agreed upon code of conduct can nip such problems in the bud.
- teacup50 9y ago
  Or create problems, since they give a huge amount of leverage to those interested in dominating others through purely institutional/bureaucratic power games.
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    Which is why I go out of my way to avoid projects that feel the need to wave their codes of conduct like flags. No matter how egalitarian your code of conduct is, there's no substitute for not being a shitty person.
    - galangalalgol 9y ago

curun1r 9y ago

> a way of investigating possible unconscious bias There's other ways to address that too. I've used https://textio.com/ https://textio.com/ in the past for job ads and it's really interesting to see examples of how seemingly minor word choices can land depending on the reader. It'd be a relatively simple task to run documentation, RFCs and Github comments of core team members through such a service and automatically generate a report (which wouldn't have to be released publicly, but could be sent to authors to aid in using more inclusive language going forward). The thing that's really difficult to do is to be inclusive in a way that doesn't feel exclusive towards people who aren't in the target demographics. Using these types of automated tools doesn't have that downside. Has anything like this been suggested/done by the people working on Rust?