12 ms·

> But there’s a bit of a bootstrapping problem here: if we want to reach new people, we can’t do it by relying solely on the skills and perspectives of our exis

> But there’s a bit of a bootstrapping problem here: if we want to reach new people, we can’t do it by relying solely on the skills and perspectives of our existing community. Cool, so they are looking to make Rust more useful by involving people with different perspectives. > we would especially love insights from include women (cis & trans), nonbinary folks, people of color Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective Edit: explained in a comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14657507 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14657507 by wll > non-native English speakers, people who learned programming later in life (older, or only in college, or at a bootcamp as part of a midlife career change), people with disabilities, or people who have different learning styles. Ah yes. This is what I expected to see. I'm loving what Rust is currently bringing and is going to bring to the world, I want them to be really approachable, and I want it to be used in new ways - but it really reads like they are playing with going the way of Github. EDIT: See earlier edit.

kmicklas 9y ago
> but it really reads like they are playing with going the way of Github. What's the way of GitHub?
- d33 9y ago
  For example this? http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-white-women-2016-2?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-whit... This topic is likely to become a flamewar IMHO though.
  - kmicklas 9y ago
    Was not aware of this. It seems like the downvote war already begun just for me asking this question...
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Downvoting in the name of diverse perspectives is... not something to aspire to.
      - kmicklas 9y ago
        Well I downvote racists and sexists on HN all the time. But I think people with good intentions should be free to discuss.
syndev 9y ago
> Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective Documentation or discussion could use language that means some demographic groups aren't comfortable getting involved, when they could otherwise be great contributors. It's a reasonable idea that some people already think computer programming "isn't for them", and that correcting that misconception is important. I agree that people should be judged by their merits, so we should focus on not deterring people for non-technical reasons.
wll 9y ago
> Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective The effort to reach underrepresented demographics seems to stem from last year's survey results [0]. Increased diversity could lead to new project-wide perspectives and overall community enrichment, if solely due to life-experience-based heterogeneity. [0] https://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/06/30/State-of-Rust-Survey-2016.html#survey-demographics https://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/06/30/State-of-Rust-Survey-2...
- DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
  I see it as a way of investigating possible unconscious bias or even hostility towards minorities in the Rust developer community - from easily fixable things such as male-bias in documentation (e.g. examples using male pronouns disproportionately) - to vitriolic sexist and other abuse in chat and forum groups. Fortunately the Rust community isn't GamerGate, but if we can eliminate those attitudes sooner, then that's in Rust's long-term interests.
  - collyw 9y ago
    Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. What does changing them actually solve? Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial.
    - emilk 9y ago
      Many small trivial things can add up. Also, if we cater to the status quo ("the vast majority of programmers"), the status quo is less likely to change.
      - teacup50 9y ago
        Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.
blevin 9y ago
> They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective Well, maybe that's the thing: they aren't measurements of relevant skills or perspective. Instead, you might consider it a form of stratified sampling: trying to include sub-populations that may not be as well-represented so far but may supply valuable contributions.
Certhas 9y ago
>> we would especially love insights from include women (cis & trans), nonbinary folks, people of color > Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective It might be indirect, but if the empirical evidence says they are under represented, then there is a reason for that. Asking for their perspectives is a sensible way to investigate what the reason may be. Let's be clear, I don't think it's necessarily within the Rust communities power to change these reasons. If mothers tell their daughters that programming is for boys [1], and discourage them from spending all their time at the computer, then that would be expected, somewhere far down the road, to lead to an under representation of women. That's hard to fix, and it's not something the Rust community can do much about, given that none of the mothers involved would have ever heard of Rust to begin with. But maybe there will also be some ways to be more welcoming, and I'd expect that to overlap somewhat with the latter points (that you approved off) that have a more clear cut causal hypothesis associated to them. If you were discouraged from playing around with programming as a kid, you'll likely have ended up learning programming later in life. If you were socialized to avoid conflict, then a high conflict environment will be a turn off. Asking what makes it better for people with a different background has the potential to make it better for people who might not share the background, but the handicaps it confers. [1] http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~abaron/downloads/Croft_Schmader_Block_Baron_PsySci2014.pdf http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~abaron/downloads/Croft_Schmader_Bl...
- teacup50 9y ago
  > Asking for their perspectives is a sensible way to investigate what the reason may be. Is it? Why? When patients visit the ER, they often believe that whatever change in their diet that they're aware of and focused on -- like eating cabbage last week -- must be the cause of their ailment. When parents had their children diagnosed with autism, they cast their net for the nearest change to be blamed ... and found vaccines.
  - tpush 9y ago
    Ahem, what? Are you really saying underrepresented people don't know why they don't contribute to a project they maybe would have?
teacup50 9y ago
At first I thought "Great! They're looking for intellectual diversity of thought! Breaking out of their thought monoculture!" Then I saw that they were only interested in identity groups, not intellectual diversity, and my identity, as defined by them, is apparently already well-represented ... even if my intellectual positions and experience are not. Pointless, lame, and wrong. [edit] Don't misinterpret "poorly represented" as implying that my experience is "special".
- urethrafranklin 9y ago
  Okay, I'll bite: what's so special about your intellectual positions?
  - Danihan 9y ago
    What's so special about someone's gender identity?
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  I agree. There's two forms of diversity to try to increase: under-represented categories and intellectual. The latter is actually the most important as these people think differently. It's that which gives them both their extra potential for innovation and conflict within groups. A racial/gender mix that mostly think alike on key issues isn't diverse in this regard. That will change representation or wealth spread in the minority categories but not provide the benefits of diversity to an organization. The good news is people from different backgrounds and places are often already diverse a bit in their thinking. There's still some benefit. Strongest is looking for both, though. I've done that in my social circle offline and online. We mostly get along despite strong disagreement on some topics. We learn from each other. They can do stuff I can't. We've come up with some great ideas together. They're mostly white but really different. At work, the split varies considerably with most of them I talk to being black over past months. A few were among most unique or hardworking people I've seen in a while, too. So, worth considering both kinds of diversity when talking about the subject.
empath75 9y ago
Programming as a profession is not merely a technical exercise and there is a large social and cultural dimension to it, which should be taken into account, although I think that in the attempt to be inclusive from the perspective of the American cultural milieu, they're going to put off international contributors. That list of minorities seems totally valid to me from an American perspective, but doesn't necessarily make sense everywhere. And I think they should make an effort to reach out to people of lower economic/educational status or rural areas, regardless of race/gender/etc.

kmicklas 9y ago

> but it really reads like they are playing with going the way of Github. What's the way of GitHub?

d33 9y ago
For example this? http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-white-women-2016-2?IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/diversity-guru-discusses-whit... This topic is likely to become a flamewar IMHO though.
- kmicklas 9y ago
  Was not aware of this. It seems like the downvote war already begun just for me asking this question...
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Downvoting in the name of diverse perspectives is... not something to aspire to.
    - kmicklas 9y ago
      Well I downvote racists and sexists on HN all the time. But I think people with good intentions should be free to discuss.

syndev 9y ago

> Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective Documentation or discussion could use language that means some demographic groups aren't comfortable getting involved, when they could otherwise be great contributors. It's a reasonable idea that some people already think computer programming "isn't for them", and that correcting that misconception is important. I agree that people should be judged by their merits, so we should focus on not deterring people for non-technical reasons.

wll 9y ago

> Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective The effort to reach underrepresented demographics seems to stem from last year's survey results [0]. Increased diversity could lead to new project-wide perspectives and overall community enrichment, if solely due to life-experience-based heterogeneity. [0] https://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/06/30/State-of-Rust-Survey-2016.html#survey-demographics https://blog.rust-lang.org/2016/06/30/State-of-Rust-Survey-2...

DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
I see it as a way of investigating possible unconscious bias or even hostility towards minorities in the Rust developer community - from easily fixable things such as male-bias in documentation (e.g. examples using male pronouns disproportionately) - to vitriolic sexist and other abuse in chat and forum groups. Fortunately the Rust community isn't GamerGate, but if we can eliminate those attitudes sooner, then that's in Rust's long-term interests.
- collyw 9y ago
  Considering the vast majority of programmers are male, does it really matter if we use male pronouns. What does changing them actually solve? Are women really put off of computing because of that? It all seems so trivial.
  - emilk 9y ago
    Many small trivial things can add up. Also, if we cater to the status quo ("the vast majority of programmers"), the status quo is less likely to change.
    - teacup50 9y ago
      Why is the status quo a problem? I'm not saying it isn't; I don't know. I just don't see why should we assume that it is.

blevin 9y ago

> They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective Well, maybe that's the thing: they aren't measurements of relevant skills or perspective. Instead, you might consider it a form of stratified sampling: trying to include sub-populations that may not be as well-represented so far but may supply valuable contributions.

Certhas 9y ago

>> we would especially love insights from include women (cis & trans), nonbinary folks, people of color > Oh. Well this is weird. They seem like awfully indirect measurements of relevant skills and perspective It might be indirect, but if the empirical evidence says they are under represented, then there is a reason for that. Asking for their perspectives is a sensible way to investigate what the reason may be. Let's be clear, I don't think it's necessarily within the Rust communities power to change these reasons. If mothers tell their daughters that programming is for boys [1], and discourage them from spending all their time at the computer, then that would be expected, somewhere far down the road, to lead to an under representation of women. That's hard to fix, and it's not something the Rust community can do much about, given that none of the mothers involved would have ever heard of Rust to begin with. But maybe there will also be some ways to be more welcoming, and I'd expect that to overlap somewhat with the latter points (that you approved off) that have a more clear cut causal hypothesis associated to them. If you were discouraged from playing around with programming as a kid, you'll likely have ended up learning programming later in life. If you were socialized to avoid conflict, then a high conflict environment will be a turn off. Asking what makes it better for people with a different background has the potential to make it better for people who might not share the background, but the handicaps it confers. [1] http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~abaron/downloads/Croft_Schmader_Block_Baron_PsySci2014.pdf http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~abaron/downloads/Croft_Schmader_Bl...

teacup50 9y ago
> Asking for their perspectives is a sensible way to investigate what the reason may be. Is it? Why? When patients visit the ER, they often believe that whatever change in their diet that they're aware of and focused on -- like eating cabbage last week -- must be the cause of their ailment. When parents had their children diagnosed with autism, they cast their net for the nearest change to be blamed ... and found vaccines.
- tpush 9y ago
  Ahem, what? Are you really saying underrepresented people don't know why they don't contribute to a project they maybe would have?

teacup50 9y ago

At first I thought "Great! They're looking for intellectual diversity of thought! Breaking out of their thought monoculture!" Then I saw that they were only interested in identity groups, not intellectual diversity, and my identity, as defined by them, is apparently already well-represented ... even if my intellectual positions and experience are not. Pointless, lame, and wrong. [edit] Don't misinterpret "poorly represented" as implying that my experience is "special".

urethrafranklin 9y ago
Okay, I'll bite: what's so special about your intellectual positions?
- Danihan 9y ago
  What's so special about someone's gender identity?
nickpsecurity 9y ago
I agree. There's two forms of diversity to try to increase: under-represented categories and intellectual. The latter is actually the most important as these people think differently. It's that which gives them both their extra potential for innovation and conflict within groups. A racial/gender mix that mostly think alike on key issues isn't diverse in this regard. That will change representation or wealth spread in the minority categories but not provide the benefits of diversity to an organization. The good news is people from different backgrounds and places are often already diverse a bit in their thinking. There's still some benefit. Strongest is looking for both, though. I've done that in my social circle offline and online. We mostly get along despite strong disagreement on some topics. We learn from each other. They can do stuff I can't. We've come up with some great ideas together. They're mostly white but really different. At work, the split varies considerably with most of them I talk to being black over past months. A few were among most unique or hardworking people I've seen in a while, too. So, worth considering both kinds of diversity when talking about the subject.

empath75 9y ago

Programming as a profession is not merely a technical exercise and there is a large social and cultural dimension to it, which should be taken into account, although I think that in the attempt to be inclusive from the perspective of the American cultural milieu, they're going to put off international contributors. That list of minorities seems totally valid to me from an American perspective, but doesn't necessarily make sense everywhere. And I think they should make an effort to reach out to people of lower economic/educational status or rural areas, regardless of race/gender/etc.