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"You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount t

"You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while you deprive the community even of the moderate services that he is capable of rendering. In brief, for a low wage you substitute unemployment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation." - Henry Hazlitt

handojin 9y ago
You should attribute your quotes.
- sparkling 9y ago
  A mis-paste ;)
michaelmrose 9y ago
Except for the part where this doesn't seem to be actually happening
elif 9y ago
in a fictional world with unresponsive labor markets
pjmorris 9y ago
On the other hand, you can make a man worth much more than any given amount by making it legal to create new bank balances out of thin air (central banking). This, too, deprives him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while forcing his community to continue to be subject to the services he did not earn on his own. In brief, for a high wage you substitute over-employment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation (though it will be pitched otherwise). Interesting disparities we have at opposite ends of the income scale.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  I think you'd find that many people who would agree with the quote at the top of this thread will also agree that this is a bad idea as well (at the least, when used as you describe); your comment is an accurate description of an additional problem to be addressed.
  - s73ver 9y ago
    Yet, it sounds like most of those people would rather spend more time and effort fighting raises in minimum wage than fighting those other problems.
    - thehardsphere 9y ago
      Maybe because "those other problems..." 1. Aren't the ones we're talking about here on Hacker News at the moment. 2. Don't nearly hurt the poor as much as the minimum wage does (after all, many people like it when we create money out of thin air, until it goes bust every few years).
      - s73ver 9y ago
        I'm not referring to just here in this thread, but in general. And I disagree on #2. I think the vast income disparity is far more damaging to the poor.
        thehardsphere 9y ago
        Well, be specific about what you are complaining about, rather than vague and dramatic. "Vast income disparity" is not the same as "creating money out of thin air." The government and the banking system effectively do create money out of thin air, through fractional reserve banking and encouraging the purchase of real estate with mortgages. Lots of people like that, even though there are lots of bad things about it. It's especially popular with people who would otherwise not be able to afford a home and who think that disparity of wealth is a problem.
qsymmachus 9y ago
"Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people." – Adam Smith
WalterSear 9y ago
A quote isn't even anecdata.
nawgszy 9y ago
"The Market is a perfect construct that certainly has never employed unscrupulous tactics in order to undercut the masses and pad the pockets of the privileged few" - people who make arguments like this
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
drak0n1c 9y ago
Correct. Raising minimum wage disenfranchises disabled and less productive workers from finding jobs and deprives them of the social engagement that accompanies work.
- chillwaves 9y ago
  Outlawing slavery takes away a valuable cash infusion from folks who should be allowed to sell themselves and tap into their unrealized labor equity and potential future gains. We should also allow the freedom to sell organs. Let's make America free again.
mikestew 9y ago
moderate services that he is capable of rendering The community is not deprived. Seattle has determined that even the most moderate of services are worth $15/hour. And for all your fancy words, you haven’t addressed anything in the article that disagrees with you. And finally, it is considered in poor taste to quote someone (in this case, Henry Hazlitt) without attribution. Hell, you couldn’t even be bothered to wrap it in quotations, implying that these are your own words. (This was the case before parent edited it.)
gorpomon 9y ago
"Quotes are not arguments. Quotes don't begin to convey the real cost and toll of working for a wage that can't support basic needs and services, let alone an indulgence, which all lives occasionally need. Quotes in no way capture the totality of a human life, its compassion, its motivations, its missteps, its passions, its reasons a person might work a certain job, market forces be damned. Quotes takes take the words and works of people who dedicated their lives to a search for the truth and reduces them to ammunition by people who have plenty, and want to keep it that way. Quotes are intellectually bankrupt. Quotes mirror the bankruptcy of those who wield them to keep a broken status quo. Quotes think you should go talk to a person hustlin' to sell Adidas shoes to get by, rather than post quotes on the internet." -- Quotey McQuoteface
- btym 9y ago
  Could I get a source on this one?
  - nerpderp83 9y ago
    -- gorpomon
comicjk 9y ago
This supposes a level of knowledge and efficiency which labor markets don't have. Even the boss in most cases doesn't know what the employees are worth per hour, let alone what the employees know. Millions of people, including me, have never negotiated for higher pay; I worked for minimum wage in college despite being obviously worth more. Naturally, a lot of these meek souls wind up as low-wage labor. Is it better that they should rely on food stamps while their employers reap the surplus, or that the government should set a minimum wage? It is likely that some workers really aren't worth $15/hour, and it's even within possibility that some bosses might realize that and fire them. But the net effect on low-wage workers still stands to be much more positive than a crude efficient-market model would show.
- daenz 9y ago
  >I worked for minimum wage in college despite being obviously worth more. The market didn't think so. If you think you're worth more, you have to push for it, since the market can't read your mind argue on your behalf. >Naturally, a lot of these meek souls wind up as low-wage labor. That's really the crux of it. People who can't/don't/won't negotiate expect the same income from people who do negotiate and make themselves appealing to employers. Since they don't get it, they're upset, so they try to make laws to mandate everyone gets X. The problem is, they still can't negotiate and sell themselves, so they still make less than the people who do, while the economy adjusts to the new baseline income of X.
  - chillwaves 9y ago
    Your comment was already addressed by the person you are replying to. > This supposes a level of knowledge and efficiency which labor markets don't have.
    - daenz 9y ago
      My comment was explaining that negotiation is a stand-in for knowledge and efficiency. The comment I was replying to implies that bosses should just know exactly how valuable a specific employee potentially is. It's impossible, which is why you have to stand up for yourself.
nathan_f77 9y ago
I would be in favor of removing the minimum wage when universal basic income is implemented. I think that would make sense.
random314 9y ago
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hazlitt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hazlitt Henry Stuart Hazlitt (November 28, 1894 – July 9, 1993) was an American journalist who wrote about business and economics He attended New York's City College, but left after only a short time ..

handojin 9y ago

You should attribute your quotes.

sparkling 9y ago
A mis-paste ;)

michaelmrose 9y ago

Except for the part where this doesn't seem to be actually happening

elif 9y ago

in a fictional world with unresponsive labor markets

pjmorris 9y ago

On the other hand, you can make a man worth much more than any given amount by making it legal to create new bank balances out of thin air (central banking). This, too, deprives him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while forcing his community to continue to be subject to the services he did not earn on his own. In brief, for a high wage you substitute over-employment. You do harm all around, with no comparable compensation (though it will be pitched otherwise). Interesting disparities we have at opposite ends of the income scale.

JoshTriplett 9y ago
I think you'd find that many people who would agree with the quote at the top of this thread will also agree that this is a bad idea as well (at the least, when used as you describe); your comment is an accurate description of an additional problem to be addressed.
- s73ver 9y ago
  Yet, it sounds like most of those people would rather spend more time and effort fighting raises in minimum wage than fighting those other problems.
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    Maybe because "those other problems..." 1. Aren't the ones we're talking about here on Hacker News at the moment. 2. Don't nearly hurt the poor as much as the minimum wage does (after all, many people like it when we create money out of thin air, until it goes bust every few years).
    - s73ver 9y ago
      I'm not referring to just here in this thread, but in general. And I disagree on #2. I think the vast income disparity is far more damaging to the poor.
      - thehardsphere 9y ago
        Well, be specific about what you are complaining about, rather than vague and dramatic. "Vast income disparity" is not the same as "creating money out of thin air." The government and the banking system effectively do create money out of thin air, through fractional reserve banking and encouraging the purchase of real estate with mortgages. Lots of people like that, even though there are lots of bad things about it. It's especially popular with people who would otherwise not be able to afford a home and who think that disparity of wealth is a problem.

qsymmachus 9y ago

"Our merchants and master-manufacturers complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price, and thereby lessening the sale of their goods both at home and abroad. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people." – Adam Smith

WalterSear 9y ago

A quote isn't even anecdata.

nawgszy 9y ago

"The Market is a perfect construct that certainly has never employed unscrupulous tactics in order to undercut the masses and pad the pockets of the privileged few" - people who make arguments like this

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

drak0n1c 9y ago

Correct. Raising minimum wage disenfranchises disabled and less productive workers from finding jobs and deprives them of the social engagement that accompanies work.

chillwaves 9y ago
Outlawing slavery takes away a valuable cash infusion from folks who should be allowed to sell themselves and tap into their unrealized labor equity and potential future gains. We should also allow the freedom to sell organs. Let's make America free again.

mikestew 9y ago

moderate services that he is capable of rendering The community is not deprived. Seattle has determined that even the most moderate of services are worth $15/hour. And for all your fancy words, you haven’t addressed anything in the article that disagrees with you. And finally, it is considered in poor taste to quote someone (in this case, Henry Hazlitt) without attribution. Hell, you couldn’t even be bothered to wrap it in quotations, implying that these are your own words. (This was the case before parent edited it.)

gorpomon 9y ago

"Quotes are not arguments. Quotes don't begin to convey the real cost and toll of working for a wage that can't support basic needs and services, let alone an indulgence, which all lives occasionally need. Quotes in no way capture the totality of a human life, its compassion, its motivations, its missteps, its passions, its reasons a person might work a certain job, market forces be damned. Quotes takes take the words and works of people who dedicated their lives to a search for the truth and reduces them to ammunition by people who have plenty, and want to keep it that way. Quotes are intellectually bankrupt. Quotes mirror the bankruptcy of those who wield them to keep a broken status quo. Quotes think you should go talk to a person hustlin' to sell Adidas shoes to get by, rather than post quotes on the internet." -- Quotey McQuoteface

btym 9y ago
Could I get a source on this one?
- nerpderp83 9y ago
  -- gorpomon

comicjk 9y ago

This supposes a level of knowledge and efficiency which labor markets don't have. Even the boss in most cases doesn't know what the employees are worth per hour, let alone what the employees know. Millions of people, including me, have never negotiated for higher pay; I worked for minimum wage in college despite being obviously worth more. Naturally, a lot of these meek souls wind up as low-wage labor. Is it better that they should rely on food stamps while their employers reap the surplus, or that the government should set a minimum wage? It is likely that some workers really aren't worth $15/hour, and it's even within possibility that some bosses might realize that and fire them. But the net effect on low-wage workers still stands to be much more positive than a crude efficient-market model would show.

daenz 9y ago
>I worked for minimum wage in college despite being obviously worth more. The market didn't think so. If you think you're worth more, you have to push for it, since the market can't read your mind argue on your behalf. >Naturally, a lot of these meek souls wind up as low-wage labor. That's really the crux of it. People who can't/don't/won't negotiate expect the same income from people who do negotiate and make themselves appealing to employers. Since they don't get it, they're upset, so they try to make laws to mandate everyone gets X. The problem is, they still can't negotiate and sell themselves, so they still make less than the people who do, while the economy adjusts to the new baseline income of X.
- chillwaves 9y ago
  Your comment was already addressed by the person you are replying to. > This supposes a level of knowledge and efficiency which labor markets don't have.
  - daenz 9y ago
    My comment was explaining that negotiation is a stand-in for knowledge and efficiency. The comment I was replying to implies that bosses should just know exactly how valuable a specific employee potentially is. It's impossible, which is why you have to stand up for yourself.

nathan_f77 9y ago

I would be in favor of removing the minimum wage when universal basic income is implemented. I think that would make sense.

random314 9y ago

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hazlitt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hazlitt Henry Stuart Hazlitt (November 28, 1894 – July 9, 1993) was an American journalist who wrote about business and economics He attended New York's City College, but left after only a short time ..