4 ms·

Why shouldn't they criticize strategy? Do you expect people to just blindly follow and abide by what the company's leadership sets out to do?

ksk 9y ago
Depends on who's doing it. In the abstract, everyone has a "right" to speak their mind, and everybody else has a "right" to ignore them. But that gets you nowhere. IMHO Unless you've done something that makes your opinion worth something, you should be focused on proving yourself.
rockdoe 9y ago
Mozilla people for some reason feel they can criticize their own company publicly. That just isn't done elsewhere. You criticize internally and form a front to the outside. Meanwhile, Mozilla employees cry for their own CEO to be fired. That's just insane and wouldn't fly elsewhere.
- fabrice_d 9y ago
  No one in Mozilla Corp asked for their CEO to be fired. These were Mozilla Foundation employees.
  - rockdoe 9y ago
    Did I claim otherwise in my post? The nuance is BS anyway. One is a subsidiary of the other, IIRC.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      You said "their own CEO". The Foundation's CEO is Mark Suman, has been for almost a decade.
    - BrendanEich 9y ago
      You did claim otherwise. You wrote just above that "Meanwhile, Mozilla employees cry for their own CEO to be fired." Mozilla Corporation (of which I was CEO) was the subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation, not vice versa. So in no case were those few Mozilla Foundation employees who tweeted against me, the people who had me as "their own CEO". Are you stupid, or dishonest? Pick one. Your posts are BS, and crucial logical contradictions are not "nuance".
- geoelectric 9y ago
  Mozilla has never run under the model of a traditional closed-walls corporation, at least with respect to personnel. It's first and foremost an open-source community, and some people are paid by Mozilla Corp. or Mozilla Foundation to dedicate their entire working time to that community. Allowing open dissent has always been one of the community values, so long as it's otherwise respectful. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/participation/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/part... At least as of a couple of years ago when I left, there were no internal guidelines above and beyond these. Socially, of course, you could shoot yourself in the foot just like anywhere else, but we did enjoy a great deal of intellectual freedom and were expected to be vocal if we thought something should be different. I can't possibly view that as a bad thing. The Eich situation was and still is touchy, and I won't go much deeper into that other than to echo Fabrice's comment that it was originally driven by a handful of Foundation employees that weren't part of his company (Mozilla Corporation is a different corporate entity than Mozilla Foundation) and to add that within Corp there was a diverse range of opinions, both privately and publicly expressed. As for "wouldn't fly elsewhere," there's never been any particular ethical reason why an employee shouldn't publicly speak their mind short of spilling trade secrets. The reason has always been fear of being fired. Influence via fear has some pretty sharp downsides, and I'm happy to see the current trend of people submitting to it less.
  - irrational 9y ago
    >I'm happy to see the current trend of people submitting to it less. How so? I think most people have gotten the memo that if you want to keep your job you will toe the line and only say things that couldn't possibly offend anyone. Not only did influence via fear win, it has become so entrenched that it isn't even visible anymore.
    - rockdoe 9y ago
      Blurring the line between internal and external discussion in this is silly. You should be free to speak up internally and having fear there is detrimental. But hanging internal disagreements out for the competition? Stupid. There's no upsides. there's never been any particular ethical reason why an employee shouldn't publicly speak their mind short of spilling trade secrets It's not about ethics. The public perception of a company matters. Hanging internal disagreements out there does not help so you're just hurting yourself.
owebmaster 9y ago
Because for a software developer/designer to criticize a strategy they must have some skills that most of the time they don't, so their critics are most probably wrong (at least most of the times, for obvious 101 statistics), but their own ignorance don't let them see it and then they jeopardize their chief strategy :) And the same happens in politics and economy: everybody also thinks that been a citizen makes then elected to say how the economy and the politics should be lead. But their efforts stops there, in talking. No hands on works, neither in politics, neither in the company they are complaining. Mostly because as they don't know the core business that much, they can't get the big picture and start thinking in a binary way.

ksk 9y ago

Depends on who's doing it. In the abstract, everyone has a "right" to speak their mind, and everybody else has a "right" to ignore them. But that gets you nowhere. IMHO Unless you've done something that makes your opinion worth something, you should be focused on proving yourself.

rockdoe 9y ago

Mozilla people for some reason feel they can criticize their own company publicly. That just isn't done elsewhere. You criticize internally and form a front to the outside. Meanwhile, Mozilla employees cry for their own CEO to be fired. That's just insane and wouldn't fly elsewhere.

fabrice_d 9y ago
No one in Mozilla Corp asked for their CEO to be fired. These were Mozilla Foundation employees.
- rockdoe 9y ago
  Did I claim otherwise in my post? The nuance is BS anyway. One is a subsidiary of the other, IIRC.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    You said "their own CEO". The Foundation's CEO is Mark Suman, has been for almost a decade.
  - BrendanEich 9y ago
    You did claim otherwise. You wrote just above that "Meanwhile, Mozilla employees cry for their own CEO to be fired." Mozilla Corporation (of which I was CEO) was the subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation, not vice versa. So in no case were those few Mozilla Foundation employees who tweeted against me, the people who had me as "their own CEO". Are you stupid, or dishonest? Pick one. Your posts are BS, and crucial logical contradictions are not "nuance".
geoelectric 9y ago
Mozilla has never run under the model of a traditional closed-walls corporation, at least with respect to personnel. It's first and foremost an open-source community, and some people are paid by Mozilla Corp. or Mozilla Foundation to dedicate their entire working time to that community. Allowing open dissent has always been one of the community values, so long as it's otherwise respectful. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/participation/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/part... At least as of a couple of years ago when I left, there were no internal guidelines above and beyond these. Socially, of course, you could shoot yourself in the foot just like anywhere else, but we did enjoy a great deal of intellectual freedom and were expected to be vocal if we thought something should be different. I can't possibly view that as a bad thing. The Eich situation was and still is touchy, and I won't go much deeper into that other than to echo Fabrice's comment that it was originally driven by a handful of Foundation employees that weren't part of his company (Mozilla Corporation is a different corporate entity than Mozilla Foundation) and to add that within Corp there was a diverse range of opinions, both privately and publicly expressed. As for "wouldn't fly elsewhere," there's never been any particular ethical reason why an employee shouldn't publicly speak their mind short of spilling trade secrets. The reason has always been fear of being fired. Influence via fear has some pretty sharp downsides, and I'm happy to see the current trend of people submitting to it less.
- irrational 9y ago
  >I'm happy to see the current trend of people submitting to it less. How so? I think most people have gotten the memo that if you want to keep your job you will toe the line and only say things that couldn't possibly offend anyone. Not only did influence via fear win, it has become so entrenched that it isn't even visible anymore.
  - rockdoe 9y ago
    Blurring the line between internal and external discussion in this is silly. You should be free to speak up internally and having fear there is detrimental. But hanging internal disagreements out for the competition? Stupid. There's no upsides. there's never been any particular ethical reason why an employee shouldn't publicly speak their mind short of spilling trade secrets It's not about ethics. The public perception of a company matters. Hanging internal disagreements out there does not help so you're just hurting yourself.

owebmaster 9y ago

Because for a software developer/designer to criticize a strategy they must have some skills that most of the time they don't, so their critics are most probably wrong (at least most of the times, for obvious 101 statistics), but their own ignorance don't let them see it and then they jeopardize their chief strategy :) And the same happens in politics and economy: everybody also thinks that been a citizen makes then elected to say how the economy and the politics should be lead. But their efforts stops there, in talking. No hands on works, neither in politics, neither in the company they are complaining. Mostly because as they don't know the core business that much, they can't get the big picture and start thinking in a binary way.