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> But isn't it objectively less "scummy" than charging money up front, which most universities do? It entirely depends on the price and what you're getting for

> But isn't it objectively less "scummy" than charging money up front, which most universities do? It entirely depends on the price and what you're getting for that price. I generally agree with you that the model is 1) interesting and 2) not at all scummy. But the cost-benefit on these coding schools always confuses me. The total cost of one of this certificate is probably something in the 30k-60k+ range assuming you're successful (location is SF -- and marketing print specifically mentions Google et al). That's just tuition, not cost of living. And that's for two 9 month project-based sessions. For reference, the average student loan debt is 37k for four years and an accredited diploma. Which, okay, might not be the full cost. But to be fair, you can DEFINITELY pay for college in 100% debt + weekend jobs/internships, and come out in the 20k-25k range. And that's total cost, with no scholarships, assuming you go to a second-tier state school or can live at home (ok, that skews total cost, but it's a very real option for many, many students!). IMO universities are the clear winner in this cost-benefit calculation. Hands down, no questions asked. You can double or triple major and have one or two very tenable backup careers if a tech bubble bursts. In addition to that, if you want, you'll have everything you would learn at a coding school. Plus some extra theory/systems knowledge that opens up the non-web-dev job market. Graduate school is an option if you want to go the research route. And, very likely, you'll have a much larger network of close-knit peers that includes not only coders but also managers, engineers, business types, doctors, lawyers, etc. Immigration becomes easier. You'll have some physics/chemistry/calculus knowledge as well as some econ knowledge if you choose the right courses. And so on. The problem is that a lot of people don't take full advantage of university while they're there, or choose universities that don't align with their goals. I think coding schools are weird in this respect -- IMO they tend to be pretty expensive for what you're getting, but maybe the target clientele wouldn't thrive in a university environment or don't want to take 4 years to get a holistic education. So again, not at all scummy! But also IMO definitely not a better deal than the traditional route.

bradleyjg 9y ago
In terms of scumminess I think it is relevant that the student loans (mostly) come from the federal government. Neither the for-profit or nominally non-profit universities bear any risk of default. They make sure to get all their cash up front. This means that their incentives are as well aligned as they might be. One interesting proposal I've seen is to create a 'skin in the game' rule akin to the one that was supposed to go into place for mortgage originators under Dodd-Frank (but mostly didn't). That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  Agreed, 100%! > That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs. Wouldn't this requirement make "17%" institutions illegal? I think the 17% approach is reasonable. IMO coding schools should be allowed to offer bona fide diplomas. Maybe not Bachelor's Degrees, but they should be able to get accredited and be eligible for GI bill etc. The last thing higher ed needs is even larger moats. So, skin in the game -- absolutely! But not at the expense of making it even harder for new players to enter the market.
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    I would think that the skin in the game requirement would be tied into eligibility for federal student loans. Since a 17% institution wouldn't be using those it wouldn't impact them. I agree that model is even better at aligning incentives and shouldn't be forbidden.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    What would a bona fide diploma be? A diploma is just a certificate that you have completed a course. It's not legally protected in any way is it?
    - throwawayjava 9y ago
      It's not the certification of the student that matters; it's the accreditation of the company providing the education! You can't use your GI bill benefits or subsidized student loans at most coding schools. That's a shame in cases where the coding school is high quality! If the coding school is an accredited degree-granting institution, then federal/state assistance can be used to pay for the education.
brewdad 9y ago
Your $37k debt figure sounds low...really low. I graduated 20 years ago with a (then average) debt load of ~$20k. Tuition rates and debt loads have skyrocketed since then. $37k could represent average debt load including those who have been paying for years already but I'd love to see your source for that figure.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  Here's where I got the number; no citation but they do stipulate 2016 at time of graduation: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ Here's a breakdown by state for 2015 from a more legit looking source and a report I don't have time to read; they actually put it at 30k: http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data > Tuition rates and debt loads have skyrocketed since then Total debt load across the entire population has skyrocketed in part because there are a lot more people attending college and during the recession a lot of people weren't paying off their loans, so that number could be misleading for this reason. Could be that debt load at graduation per pupil has not increased, but total debt load has skyrocketed. Tuition rates have certainly increased, but it's really hard to find data on what people are actually paying outside of borrowing rates. I graduated high school with high ACTs but an extremely low GPA and still had >66% "scholarship"... Tuition != amount paid. If you have "actual amount paid" data I'd love to see it.

bradleyjg 9y ago

In terms of scumminess I think it is relevant that the student loans (mostly) come from the federal government. Neither the for-profit or nominally non-profit universities bear any risk of default. They make sure to get all their cash up front. This means that their incentives are as well aligned as they might be. One interesting proposal I've seen is to create a 'skin in the game' rule akin to the one that was supposed to go into place for mortgage originators under Dodd-Frank (but mostly didn't). That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs.

throwawayjava 9y ago
Agreed, 100%! > That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs. Wouldn't this requirement make "17%" institutions illegal? I think the 17% approach is reasonable. IMO coding schools should be allowed to offer bona fide diplomas. Maybe not Bachelor's Degrees, but they should be able to get accredited and be eligible for GI bill etc. The last thing higher ed needs is even larger moats. So, skin in the game -- absolutely! But not at the expense of making it even harder for new players to enter the market.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  I would think that the skin in the game requirement would be tied into eligibility for federal student loans. Since a 17% institution wouldn't be using those it wouldn't impact them. I agree that model is even better at aligning incentives and shouldn't be forbidden.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  What would a bona fide diploma be? A diploma is just a certificate that you have completed a course. It's not legally protected in any way is it?
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    It's not the certification of the student that matters; it's the accreditation of the company providing the education! You can't use your GI bill benefits or subsidized student loans at most coding schools. That's a shame in cases where the coding school is high quality! If the coding school is an accredited degree-granting institution, then federal/state assistance can be used to pay for the education.

brewdad 9y ago

Your $37k debt figure sounds low...really low. I graduated 20 years ago with a (then average) debt load of ~$20k. Tuition rates and debt loads have skyrocketed since then. $37k could represent average debt load including those who have been paying for years already but I'd love to see your source for that figure.

throwawayjava 9y ago
Here's where I got the number; no citation but they do stipulate 2016 at time of graduation: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ Here's a breakdown by state for 2015 from a more legit looking source and a report I don't have time to read; they actually put it at 30k: http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data > Tuition rates and debt loads have skyrocketed since then Total debt load across the entire population has skyrocketed in part because there are a lot more people attending college and during the recession a lot of people weren't paying off their loans, so that number could be misleading for this reason. Could be that debt load at graduation per pupil has not increased, but total debt load has skyrocketed. Tuition rates have certainly increased, but it's really hard to find data on what people are actually paying outside of borrowing rates. I graduated high school with high ACTs but an extremely low GPA and still had >66% "scholarship"... Tuition != amount paid. If you have "actual amount paid" data I'd love to see it.