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> But there was no stipulation that the job needed to be in tech or anything. So the whole thing might be a total waste of time and you would still have to fork

> But there was no stipulation that the job needed to be in tech or anything. So the whole thing might be a total waste of time and you would still have to fork away a cut of your salary when you find a job as a kitchen hand or whatever. But isn't it objectively less "scummy" than charging money up front, which most universities do? Then if you fail to find a good job after graduation, you are still responsible for the full amount regardless of your income. Some minimum threshold before the percentage is taken off would make sense - the "tax" would be insignificant income to the university but a high cost to someone working for minimum wage as a kitchen hand. But restricting it to tech is not that obvious. Every office job in the modern world benefits from a) having some sort of degree paper, and b) having some tech skills.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> But isn't it objectively less "scummy" than charging money up front, which most universities do? It entirely depends on the price and what you're getting for that price. I generally agree with you that the model is 1) interesting and 2) not at all scummy. But the cost-benefit on these coding schools always confuses me. The total cost of one of this certificate is probably something in the 30k-60k+ range assuming you're successful (location is SF -- and marketing print specifically mentions Google et al). That's just tuition, not cost of living. And that's for two 9 month project-based sessions. For reference, the average student loan debt is 37k for four years and an accredited diploma. Which, okay, might not be the full cost. But to be fair, you can DEFINITELY pay for college in 100% debt + weekend jobs/internships, and come out in the 20k-25k range. And that's total cost, with no scholarships, assuming you go to a second-tier state school or can live at home (ok, that skews total cost, but it's a very real option for many, many students!). IMO universities are the clear winner in this cost-benefit calculation. Hands down, no questions asked. You can double or triple major and have one or two very tenable backup careers if a tech bubble bursts. In addition to that, if you want, you'll have everything you would learn at a coding school. Plus some extra theory/systems knowledge that opens up the non-web-dev job market. Graduate school is an option if you want to go the research route. And, very likely, you'll have a much larger network of close-knit peers that includes not only coders but also managers, engineers, business types, doctors, lawyers, etc. Immigration becomes easier. You'll have some physics/chemistry/calculus knowledge as well as some econ knowledge if you choose the right courses. And so on. The problem is that a lot of people don't take full advantage of university while they're there, or choose universities that don't align with their goals. I think coding schools are weird in this respect -- IMO they tend to be pretty expensive for what you're getting, but maybe the target clientele wouldn't thrive in a university environment or don't want to take 4 years to get a holistic education. So again, not at all scummy! But also IMO definitely not a better deal than the traditional route.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  In terms of scumminess I think it is relevant that the student loans (mostly) come from the federal government. Neither the for-profit or nominally non-profit universities bear any risk of default. They make sure to get all their cash up front. This means that their incentives are as well aligned as they might be. One interesting proposal I've seen is to create a 'skin in the game' rule akin to the one that was supposed to go into place for mortgage originators under Dodd-Frank (but mostly didn't). That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    Agreed, 100%! > That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs. Wouldn't this requirement make "17%" institutions illegal? I think the 17% approach is reasonable. IMO coding schools should be allowed to offer bona fide diplomas. Maybe not Bachelor's Degrees, but they should be able to get accredited and be eligible for GI bill etc. The last thing higher ed needs is even larger moats. So, skin in the game -- absolutely! But not at the expense of making it even harder for new players to enter the market.
    - bradleyjg 9y ago
      I would think that the skin in the game requirement would be tied into eligibility for federal student loans. Since a 17% institution wouldn't be using those it wouldn't impact them. I agree that model is even better at aligning incentives and shouldn't be forbidden.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      What would a bona fide diploma be? A diploma is just a certificate that you have completed a course. It's not legally protected in any way is it?
      - throwawayjava 9y ago
julien421 9y ago
FYI we (Holberton) have a minimum threshold: if you don't find a job or if it under 40k you don't pay us back because we failed at either training you or selecting you as a student.
- nickpsecurity 9y ago
  Interestingly enough, that's around the same number I came up with as a minimum wage for students with big loans to pay back a University. People would tell me that $15 an hour or so for IT work like we get out here was decent pay for new people. I said a lot of these people have Bachelor's degrees with minimum payments of $2,000 a month. Lowest cost-of-living out here (poor people life) + that payment = you need at least $40,000 a year just to scrape by. People just don't get how the traditional model of education plus companies not paying people anything puts such a financial burden on graduates that they're damn-near better off taking a no-degree approach.
  - learc83 9y ago
    Did you go to a private school? Federal loans (~90% of all student loans are Federal) have income based repayment plans. Under the income based repayment plan, a single person making $15/hour 40 hours/week would only need to pay about $100 per month.
    - nickpsecurity 9y ago
      Yep. A choice I regret now.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > ...or selecting you as a student IMO this is primarily where many universities are failing, which is an enormous disservice to their students. Any reasonably intelligent and dedicated student can go to university and come out the other end with a well-paying job.
  - sevensor 9y ago

throwawayjava 9y ago

> But isn't it objectively less "scummy" than charging money up front, which most universities do? It entirely depends on the price and what you're getting for that price. I generally agree with you that the model is 1) interesting and 2) not at all scummy. But the cost-benefit on these coding schools always confuses me. The total cost of one of this certificate is probably something in the 30k-60k+ range assuming you're successful (location is SF -- and marketing print specifically mentions Google et al). That's just tuition, not cost of living. And that's for two 9 month project-based sessions. For reference, the average student loan debt is 37k for four years and an accredited diploma. Which, okay, might not be the full cost. But to be fair, you can DEFINITELY pay for college in 100% debt + weekend jobs/internships, and come out in the 20k-25k range. And that's total cost, with no scholarships, assuming you go to a second-tier state school or can live at home (ok, that skews total cost, but it's a very real option for many, many students!). IMO universities are the clear winner in this cost-benefit calculation. Hands down, no questions asked. You can double or triple major and have one or two very tenable backup careers if a tech bubble bursts. In addition to that, if you want, you'll have everything you would learn at a coding school. Plus some extra theory/systems knowledge that opens up the non-web-dev job market. Graduate school is an option if you want to go the research route. And, very likely, you'll have a much larger network of close-knit peers that includes not only coders but also managers, engineers, business types, doctors, lawyers, etc. Immigration becomes easier. You'll have some physics/chemistry/calculus knowledge as well as some econ knowledge if you choose the right courses. And so on. The problem is that a lot of people don't take full advantage of university while they're there, or choose universities that don't align with their goals. I think coding schools are weird in this respect -- IMO they tend to be pretty expensive for what you're getting, but maybe the target clientele wouldn't thrive in a university environment or don't want to take 4 years to get a holistic education. So again, not at all scummy! But also IMO definitely not a better deal than the traditional route.

bradleyjg 9y ago
In terms of scumminess I think it is relevant that the student loans (mostly) come from the federal government. Neither the for-profit or nominally non-profit universities bear any risk of default. They make sure to get all their cash up front. This means that their incentives are as well aligned as they might be. One interesting proposal I've seen is to create a 'skin in the game' rule akin to the one that was supposed to go into place for mortgage originators under Dodd-Frank (but mostly didn't). That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  Agreed, 100%! > That is require educational institutions themselves to finance and hold part of the student loans used to pay for their programs. Wouldn't this requirement make "17%" institutions illegal? I think the 17% approach is reasonable. IMO coding schools should be allowed to offer bona fide diplomas. Maybe not Bachelor's Degrees, but they should be able to get accredited and be eligible for GI bill etc. The last thing higher ed needs is even larger moats. So, skin in the game -- absolutely! But not at the expense of making it even harder for new players to enter the market.
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    I would think that the skin in the game requirement would be tied into eligibility for federal student loans. Since a 17% institution wouldn't be using those it wouldn't impact them. I agree that model is even better at aligning incentives and shouldn't be forbidden.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    What would a bona fide diploma be? A diploma is just a certificate that you have completed a course. It's not legally protected in any way is it?
    - throwawayjava 9y ago

julien421 9y ago

FYI we (Holberton) have a minimum threshold: if you don't find a job or if it under 40k you don't pay us back because we failed at either training you or selecting you as a student.

nickpsecurity 9y ago
Interestingly enough, that's around the same number I came up with as a minimum wage for students with big loans to pay back a University. People would tell me that $15 an hour or so for IT work like we get out here was decent pay for new people. I said a lot of these people have Bachelor's degrees with minimum payments of $2,000 a month. Lowest cost-of-living out here (poor people life) + that payment = you need at least $40,000 a year just to scrape by. People just don't get how the traditional model of education plus companies not paying people anything puts such a financial burden on graduates that they're damn-near better off taking a no-degree approach.
- learc83 9y ago
  Did you go to a private school? Federal loans (~90% of all student loans are Federal) have income based repayment plans. Under the income based repayment plan, a single person making $15/hour 40 hours/week would only need to pay about $100 per month.
  - nickpsecurity 9y ago
    Yep. A choice I regret now.
throwawayjava 9y ago
> ...or selecting you as a student IMO this is primarily where many universities are failing, which is an enormous disservice to their students. Any reasonably intelligent and dedicated student can go to university and come out the other end with a well-paying job.
- sevensor 9y ago