6 ms·

How is this different from the narratives of "welfare dependence" and "inter-generational poverty" advanced by republicans to advocate for deep cuts to urban we

How is this different from the narratives of "welfare dependence" and "inter-generational poverty" advanced by republicans to advocate for deep cuts to urban welfare? If there are more people in a city than it provides opportunity for it seems to me to be a similar cruelty to incentivize them to stay in one place because they have "roots" there or something equally vague.

opportune 9y ago
The main difference is that there are at least jobs in cities. They may not all be >$50k solid middle class jobs, but they are there. There are actually almost no jobs in these areas. I would even agree with urban relocation if one city had a disproportionate number of people trapped in inter-generational poverty and another had extra jobs. I don't think "deep cuts" to urban welfare are ever the solution. I do think that the welfare system should prioritize setting its recipients up for success.
- rfrank 9y ago
  > The main difference is that there are at least jobs in cities. There just aren't any houses, so their quality of life takes a greater hit than staying put in the form of huge commutes and dramatically increased cost of living. See service workers or teachers in San Francisco. 1. https://www.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15834514/rent-transportation-commute-affordable-housing https://www.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15834514/rent-transportatio... 2. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607957/the-unaffordable-urban-paradise/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607957/the-unaffordable-u... 3. http://www.sfexaminer.com/mayor-lee-spend-44-million-sf-teacher-housing/ http://www.sfexaminer.com/mayor-lee-spend-44-million-sf-teac...
  - thwarted 9y ago
    While true, this is largely beside the point, and is addressable because it's mostly caused by politics. We don't need to have yet another discussion about Bay Area building constraints. Additionally, there are other cities that have more opportunity than closed mining towns do. At the bare minimum the people need to relocate to someplace marginally better with ANY economic opportunity, because where they're at now has NO opportunity, not necessarily some place that is the top of economic opportunity.
    - rfrank 9y ago
      No, it's not beside the point, and it's actually a huge portion of the point. Those same constraints exist in the majority of major cities in America. For people on the low end of the earning spectrum, the lack of tangible benefits for moving outside of a vague promise of better job prospects makes staying put a viable option. If you worked at McDonalds, would you move across the country and away from your entire social support system for a chance to commute two hours on public transit to work at Arbys? I wouldn't.
      - kefka_p 9y ago
        As somebody who has been on both relatively low and high ends of the earning spectrum, I'd say that the vague promise of a better job is far better than some of the alternatives. Very little is stopping these people who live minutes away from the "Paris of Appalachia" from pursuing education and improving their chances elsewhere in a manner they couldn't reproduce even in the presence of their "entire social support" systems, which I might add seem to be coming up short in the first place.
        rfrank 9y ago
        What's stopping them from pursuing online education or skills training in their current location? That's what I did when I supported myself at a minimum wage canvassing job that really sucked. Why are they only worth helping if they live in cities? > "entire social support" systems, which I might add seem to be coming up short in the first place. I doubt very much you'd make the same statement about the urban poor.
        kefka_p 9y ago
        > That's what I did when I supported myself at a minimum wage canvassing job that really sucked. Good on you, mate. I've had similar experiences myself. > Why are they only worth helping if they live in cities? Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's reading a bit much into what I'd said. I don't think I said anything that could even remotely merit such an interpretation. There is, of course, a spatial proximity of learning centers to population centers but that is just a byproduct of practicality. > I doubt very much you'd make the same statement [about social support systems coming up short] about the urban poor. Is there some reason you think I wouldn't make similar assertions about the urban poor? If people live in systemic poverty, then their social support networks have largely failed them. I would argue such a point remains true regardless of a person's origin. I think perhaps you've misread tone. I was born and raised in a rural resource community, one of the most remote in the U.S. I'm not anti-rural, by any measure.
  - akgerber 9y ago
    This is often true on the coasts, but not particularly true in Appalachia or Appalachia-adjacent urban areas. A basic house is $65k in Morgantown: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Morgantown-WV/22898744_zpid/53415_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.696554,-79.867602,39.586839,-80.024844_rect/12_zm/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Morgantown-WV/22898744... And a nice house with a 10 minute funicular commute to Downtown Pittsburgh (the Paris of Appalachia) isn't too much more: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/11363350_zpid/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.450065,-79.998944,40.422954,-80.038255_rect/14_zm/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/11363350_zpid/globalre... And one can pay much less if one wishes: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2040-Lowrie-St-Pittsburgh-PA-15212/11512198_zpid/?fullpage=true https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2040-Lowrie-St-Pittsburgh... Scarcity-driven housing costs are one of the biggest problems in a few coastal cities— but in much of the country, the problem is poverty.
    - rfrank 9y ago
      How many people in Appalachia can afford a down payment on any house? From a quick search of the addresses you linked, all are in places with high rates of property & violent crime. None of them seem like better options than being poor in your home town, and avoiding the myriad risks associated with big moves when you're a low earner who can't take any hits at all to monthly income without major sacrifices.
      - akgerber 9y ago
        Neither Troy Hill nor Duquesne Heights nor the South Side Slopes nor the entire city of Morgantown are terribly crime-ridden, by either personal experience or any statistics that I know of. Troy Hill is the 'worst' area but mostly has low-level quality of life crime. High crime neighborhoods generally have $30k houses, which are too cheap to mortgage and bought by investors that rent them out until they're falling apart, then abandon them. Both Pittsburgh and Morgantown are pretty prosperous, yet remain affordable enough for blue-collar workers to own homes close enough to the center of the city to commute by foot, bus, streetcar, funicular, PRT pod, or bike. The neighborhoods I posted are a bit rundown, but perfectly livable— I'd live in any of them. The schools aren't necessarily great in the Pittsburgh neighborhoods but they usually aren't in rural Appalachia either. I don't disagree that moving is hard when one is poor and one relies on one's social connections for a lot of support. It's just not because of a lack of houses in the prosperous parts of Appalachia. Housing shortages on the coasts are a huge issue, and a huge issue for national inequality— but overbuilding and inner-city abandonment remain a bigger issue in a lot of cities in the middle of the country.
- jdmichal 9y ago
  To answer the question, I would stop phrasing it in terms of jobs and instead in terms of productivity and imports / exports. These small communities require a good amount of imports, especially if they want something resembling a modern life with modern technology. They thereby need balancing exports to pay for them. There is very little opportunity for these people to do productive work and export it. So instead there is a reliance on government subsidy for the required imports. This equation isn't typically true for urban areas, so there's no reason for people to move. (See Detroit for details on exceptions.)
hiram112 9y ago
Good point. I know folks on the right screamed about the 'welfare queens' living on the tax payers' dime in the inner cities for generation after generation. In reality, this was a coded attack against blacks, and the majority of the claims were hyperbole. But now the left has begun making the same mean-spirited attacks on uneducated whites from Appalachia, the Midwest, and the south. Both types of stereotypes are annoying to hear repeated again and again.
- opportune 9y ago
  I'm not making a mean spirited attack. In fact, I think in the long run moving would even be beneficial for these people
  - Gargoyle 9y ago
    I think in the long run it won't matter. For the most part, the jobs they could get in the cities are starting to vanish as well. In 10-20 years, the cities will have it even worse at the lower economic end. People might as well stay where they want to live. This economic transition will eventually effect everyone. Everyone. These people are just at the front end of it.
    - terravion 9y ago
      Why do you think this? Can you provide some evidence? There was a lot of hand wringing during the recession about the end of work--"we're all losing our jobs to the robots," etc.--but it seems like there are as many jobs as ever and more good jobs. This is especially true from a global perspective. While many blue collar workers in the US are suffering from competition from foreign substitution, there are literally billions more people joining the middle class globally. It doesn't sound like the end of human work when you zoom out. Also, if you compare the rate of job displacement right now with technology compared to say the early 20th century where a majority of the jobs that existed 50 years prior were "destroyed", then it doesn't seem like we're at much of an inflection point. More likely, because we have development policies that make it hard/expensive to move, we're not putting people in the new jobs like we used to--this has down the line effects of slowing growth because the workers who are also consumers aren't spending what they could have.
Spooky23 9y ago
Disability is more insidious than welfare. States like disability because it is 100% federally funded and determinations are made by administrative law judges based on local standards. Temporary assistance (aka welfare), Medicaid, and other programs have a administrative and program cost sharing with the state and/or county. Urban poverty has a lot of disability cases too. Welfare phases out in a few years and chronically poor folks end up labeled disabled. I call it insidious because once you're on disability, there is an incentive to not try to re-enter the workforce. Most welfare recipients are off the rolls pretty quickly.

opportune 9y ago

The main difference is that there are at least jobs in cities. They may not all be >$50k solid middle class jobs, but they are there. There are actually almost no jobs in these areas. I would even agree with urban relocation if one city had a disproportionate number of people trapped in inter-generational poverty and another had extra jobs. I don't think "deep cuts" to urban welfare are ever the solution. I do think that the welfare system should prioritize setting its recipients up for success.

rfrank 9y ago
> The main difference is that there are at least jobs in cities. There just aren't any houses, so their quality of life takes a greater hit than staying put in the form of huge commutes and dramatically increased cost of living. See service workers or teachers in San Francisco. 1. https://www.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15834514/rent-transportation-commute-affordable-housing https://www.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15834514/rent-transportatio... 2. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607957/the-unaffordable-urban-paradise/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607957/the-unaffordable-u... 3. http://www.sfexaminer.com/mayor-lee-spend-44-million-sf-teacher-housing/ http://www.sfexaminer.com/mayor-lee-spend-44-million-sf-teac...
- thwarted 9y ago
  While true, this is largely beside the point, and is addressable because it's mostly caused by politics. We don't need to have yet another discussion about Bay Area building constraints. Additionally, there are other cities that have more opportunity than closed mining towns do. At the bare minimum the people need to relocate to someplace marginally better with ANY economic opportunity, because where they're at now has NO opportunity, not necessarily some place that is the top of economic opportunity.
  - rfrank 9y ago
    No, it's not beside the point, and it's actually a huge portion of the point. Those same constraints exist in the majority of major cities in America. For people on the low end of the earning spectrum, the lack of tangible benefits for moving outside of a vague promise of better job prospects makes staying put a viable option. If you worked at McDonalds, would you move across the country and away from your entire social support system for a chance to commute two hours on public transit to work at Arbys? I wouldn't.
    - kefka_p 9y ago
      As somebody who has been on both relatively low and high ends of the earning spectrum, I'd say that the vague promise of a better job is far better than some of the alternatives. Very little is stopping these people who live minutes away from the "Paris of Appalachia" from pursuing education and improving their chances elsewhere in a manner they couldn't reproduce even in the presence of their "entire social support" systems, which I might add seem to be coming up short in the first place.
      - rfrank 9y ago
        What's stopping them from pursuing online education or skills training in their current location? That's what I did when I supported myself at a minimum wage canvassing job that really sucked. Why are they only worth helping if they live in cities? > "entire social support" systems, which I might add seem to be coming up short in the first place. I doubt very much you'd make the same statement about the urban poor.
        kefka_p 9y ago
        > That's what I did when I supported myself at a minimum wage canvassing job that really sucked. Good on you, mate. I've had similar experiences myself. > Why are they only worth helping if they live in cities? Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's reading a bit much into what I'd said. I don't think I said anything that could even remotely merit such an interpretation. There is, of course, a spatial proximity of learning centers to population centers but that is just a byproduct of practicality. > I doubt very much you'd make the same statement [about social support systems coming up short] about the urban poor. Is there some reason you think I wouldn't make similar assertions about the urban poor? If people live in systemic poverty, then their social support networks have largely failed them. I would argue such a point remains true regardless of a person's origin. I think perhaps you've misread tone. I was born and raised in a rural resource community, one of the most remote in the U.S. I'm not anti-rural, by any measure.
- akgerber 9y ago
  This is often true on the coasts, but not particularly true in Appalachia or Appalachia-adjacent urban areas. A basic house is $65k in Morgantown: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Morgantown-WV/22898744_zpid/53415_rid/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.696554,-79.867602,39.586839,-80.024844_rect/12_zm/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Morgantown-WV/22898744... And a nice house with a 10 minute funicular commute to Downtown Pittsburgh (the Paris of Appalachia) isn't too much more: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/11363350_zpid/globalrelevanceex_sort/40.450065,-79.998944,40.422954,-80.038255_rect/14_zm/ https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/11363350_zpid/globalre... And one can pay much less if one wishes: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2040-Lowrie-St-Pittsburgh-PA-15212/11512198_zpid/?fullpage=true https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2040-Lowrie-St-Pittsburgh... Scarcity-driven housing costs are one of the biggest problems in a few coastal cities— but in much of the country, the problem is poverty.
  - rfrank 9y ago
    How many people in Appalachia can afford a down payment on any house? From a quick search of the addresses you linked, all are in places with high rates of property & violent crime. None of them seem like better options than being poor in your home town, and avoiding the myriad risks associated with big moves when you're a low earner who can't take any hits at all to monthly income without major sacrifices.
    - akgerber 9y ago
      Neither Troy Hill nor Duquesne Heights nor the South Side Slopes nor the entire city of Morgantown are terribly crime-ridden, by either personal experience or any statistics that I know of. Troy Hill is the 'worst' area but mostly has low-level quality of life crime. High crime neighborhoods generally have $30k houses, which are too cheap to mortgage and bought by investors that rent them out until they're falling apart, then abandon them. Both Pittsburgh and Morgantown are pretty prosperous, yet remain affordable enough for blue-collar workers to own homes close enough to the center of the city to commute by foot, bus, streetcar, funicular, PRT pod, or bike. The neighborhoods I posted are a bit rundown, but perfectly livable— I'd live in any of them. The schools aren't necessarily great in the Pittsburgh neighborhoods but they usually aren't in rural Appalachia either. I don't disagree that moving is hard when one is poor and one relies on one's social connections for a lot of support. It's just not because of a lack of houses in the prosperous parts of Appalachia. Housing shortages on the coasts are a huge issue, and a huge issue for national inequality— but overbuilding and inner-city abandonment remain a bigger issue in a lot of cities in the middle of the country.
jdmichal 9y ago
To answer the question, I would stop phrasing it in terms of jobs and instead in terms of productivity and imports / exports. These small communities require a good amount of imports, especially if they want something resembling a modern life with modern technology. They thereby need balancing exports to pay for them. There is very little opportunity for these people to do productive work and export it. So instead there is a reliance on government subsidy for the required imports. This equation isn't typically true for urban areas, so there's no reason for people to move. (See Detroit for details on exceptions.)

hiram112 9y ago

Good point. I know folks on the right screamed about the 'welfare queens' living on the tax payers' dime in the inner cities for generation after generation. In reality, this was a coded attack against blacks, and the majority of the claims were hyperbole. But now the left has begun making the same mean-spirited attacks on uneducated whites from Appalachia, the Midwest, and the south. Both types of stereotypes are annoying to hear repeated again and again.

opportune 9y ago
I'm not making a mean spirited attack. In fact, I think in the long run moving would even be beneficial for these people
- Gargoyle 9y ago
  I think in the long run it won't matter. For the most part, the jobs they could get in the cities are starting to vanish as well. In 10-20 years, the cities will have it even worse at the lower economic end. People might as well stay where they want to live. This economic transition will eventually effect everyone. Everyone. These people are just at the front end of it.
  - terravion 9y ago
    Why do you think this? Can you provide some evidence? There was a lot of hand wringing during the recession about the end of work--"we're all losing our jobs to the robots," etc.--but it seems like there are as many jobs as ever and more good jobs. This is especially true from a global perspective. While many blue collar workers in the US are suffering from competition from foreign substitution, there are literally billions more people joining the middle class globally. It doesn't sound like the end of human work when you zoom out. Also, if you compare the rate of job displacement right now with technology compared to say the early 20th century where a majority of the jobs that existed 50 years prior were "destroyed", then it doesn't seem like we're at much of an inflection point. More likely, because we have development policies that make it hard/expensive to move, we're not putting people in the new jobs like we used to--this has down the line effects of slowing growth because the workers who are also consumers aren't spending what they could have.

Spooky23 9y ago

Disability is more insidious than welfare. States like disability because it is 100% federally funded and determinations are made by administrative law judges based on local standards. Temporary assistance (aka welfare), Medicaid, and other programs have a administrative and program cost sharing with the state and/or county. Urban poverty has a lot of disability cases too. Welfare phases out in a few years and chronically poor folks end up labeled disabled. I call it insidious because once you're on disability, there is an incentive to not try to re-enter the workforce. Most welfare recipients are off the rolls pretty quickly.