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I think we should be careful not to get too defensive over this issue. I don't think most women are bullied out of their role, but neither do I think there are

by minus1 16y ago

I think we should be careful not to get too defensive over this issue. I don't think most women are bullied out of their role, but neither do I think there are gender differences that account for the full disparity between women and men in IT. If there is a way we can make the IT field more inclusive, that is a good thing.

petercooper 16y ago
If there is a way we can make the IT field more inclusive, that is a good thing. I agree. I'm no fan of discrimination, because we all have characteristics that could be discriminated against by our colleagues and most of us know that being hated on sucks. That said, I have two issues: 1) that IT is a radical edge case of men-vs-women, when, really, the majority of industries have this issue, and 2) the male armchair feminists going OTT with the dehumanizing "men must never say or do anything a woman could find vaguely uncomfortable" attitude.
- minus1 16y ago
  Frankly, I don't think we are that far apart in our thinking, yet we are reaching very different conclusions. I should admit my bias... I have a two year old daughter. She means everything to me. I hope that if she were interested in pursuing a career in computer science there would be nothing to dissuade her. Unfortunately, given the lack of women in the field, the perception is that this is primarily a career for men. I should stop here and mention that the counter is true with many careers. You mentioned elementary education as one example. I would add nursing to the list. My father went to school to become a nurse. My grandfather was ashamed. When asked what his son did he would say he was a medic in Vietnam, but never mention the fact that he later became a nurse. It cuts both ways, but neither is right. We should make the extra effort to make women comfortable. To welcome them to the field so that in the future this is not an issue.
  - petercooper 16y ago
    I have a two year old daughter. She means everything to me. I hope that if she were interested in pursuing a career in computer science there would be nothing to dissuade her. Unfortunately, given the lack of women in the field, the perception is that this is primarily a career for men. I have a one year old daughter, but I think my bias is one of a gritty commoner brought up surrounded by gritty, strong London women. Whatever my daughter ends up doing, I'd hope she can fight, drink, argue and cuss any of her male compatriots who dare piss her off under the table. Most of the women I know and respect in our field are ass kickers. They have strong personalities (even if they're not outgoing) and speak their mind - most don't freak out about gender issues, even if they've had problems in the past, they nip things in the bud. I love these guys not because they're women or "feminine" but because they're being themselves, getting on with life and not using their gender as an excuse for doing anything differently. Given this, I don't think we should make an extra effort to make women comfortable. We should make an overall effort to make people comfortable (I suspect most men don't like the bawdy "manly" behavior either), diminish the concept of gender and gender roles, and be more tolerant of each other.
    - minus1 16y ago
      Why do you think it is that most of the women in the field are "ass kickers"?
      - petercooper 16y ago
        They're just the sort of people I fraternize with - I don't mix with weak people. I dare say there are plenty of weak people in the industry having problems - it just looks like gender discrimination because men are less likely to complain about or leave the industry over such harassment due to pride and lack of options. Merely trying to make the industry more appealing to women (rather than "people" generally) is like trying to make Detroit more appealing to the rich. Until harassment and BS is stamped out for the people already in the industry, the people who have a choice whether to enter the industry or not aren't going to be easily persuaded. The garden should be weeded before we plant more seeds.

by minus1 16y ago

petercooper 16y ago

If there is a way we can make the IT field more inclusive, that is a good thing. I agree. I'm no fan of discrimination, because we all have characteristics that could be discriminated against by our colleagues and most of us know that being hated on sucks. That said, I have two issues: 1) that IT is a radical edge case of men-vs-women, when, really, the majority of industries have this issue, and 2) the male armchair feminists going OTT with the dehumanizing "men must never say or do anything a woman could find vaguely uncomfortable" attitude.

minus1 16y ago
Frankly, I don't think we are that far apart in our thinking, yet we are reaching very different conclusions. I should admit my bias... I have a two year old daughter. She means everything to me. I hope that if she were interested in pursuing a career in computer science there would be nothing to dissuade her. Unfortunately, given the lack of women in the field, the perception is that this is primarily a career for men. I should stop here and mention that the counter is true with many careers. You mentioned elementary education as one example. I would add nursing to the list. My father went to school to become a nurse. My grandfather was ashamed. When asked what his son did he would say he was a medic in Vietnam, but never mention the fact that he later became a nurse. It cuts both ways, but neither is right. We should make the extra effort to make women comfortable. To welcome them to the field so that in the future this is not an issue.
- petercooper 16y ago
  I have a two year old daughter. She means everything to me. I hope that if she were interested in pursuing a career in computer science there would be nothing to dissuade her. Unfortunately, given the lack of women in the field, the perception is that this is primarily a career for men. I have a one year old daughter, but I think my bias is one of a gritty commoner brought up surrounded by gritty, strong London women. Whatever my daughter ends up doing, I'd hope she can fight, drink, argue and cuss any of her male compatriots who dare piss her off under the table. Most of the women I know and respect in our field are ass kickers. They have strong personalities (even if they're not outgoing) and speak their mind - most don't freak out about gender issues, even if they've had problems in the past, they nip things in the bud. I love these guys not because they're women or "feminine" but because they're being themselves, getting on with life and not using their gender as an excuse for doing anything differently. Given this, I don't think we should make an extra effort to make women comfortable. We should make an overall effort to make people comfortable (I suspect most men don't like the bawdy "manly" behavior either), diminish the concept of gender and gender roles, and be more tolerant of each other.
  - minus1 16y ago
    Why do you think it is that most of the women in the field are "ass kickers"?
    - petercooper 16y ago
      They're just the sort of people I fraternize with - I don't mix with weak people. I dare say there are plenty of weak people in the industry having problems - it just looks like gender discrimination because men are less likely to complain about or leave the industry over such harassment due to pride and lack of options. Merely trying to make the industry more appealing to women (rather than "people" generally) is like trying to make Detroit more appealing to the rich. Until harassment and BS is stamped out for the people already in the industry, the people who have a choice whether to enter the industry or not aren't going to be easily persuaded. The garden should be weeded before we plant more seeds.