12 ms·

The policies that would solve the supply/demand problem are things people don't want. The cities aren't priding themselves on unaffordable housing, it's the NIM

by dsl 9y ago

The policies that would solve the supply/demand problem are things people don't want. The cities aren't priding themselves on unaffordable housing, it's the NIMBYs that are the problem. A 10 story building blocking MY view? No way! You want to add 1,500 more cars to the street in front of my house? But my children play in the front yard! We can't tax or deny foreign ownership of property! That unfairly targets immigrant entrepreneurs! (I'm not saying these arguments aren't valid in some peoples minds, but they are the root of the problem)

abakker 9y ago
Don't forget that these are enforced by continual lawsuits. Neighbors sue each other for violating HOA regulations in my neighborhood. Don't even try to change the roofline on your crappy-looking 50s stucco house. If what everyone actually fights for is a conservation approach to the legacy housing market, is it really any surprise that we get a conservation approach to it? The sad thing is that the city otherwise has good policies, but housing is a morass of entrenched self interest.
pmoriarty 9y ago
"A 10 story building blocking MY view? No way!" There are quite a few skyscrapers in SF, actually. A new huge one was built for Salesforce recently. Building affordable housing isn't a priority, though, apparently.
- pound 9y ago
  skyscrapers are in SOMA. try to build one in mission/avenues
  - irq11 9y ago
    Because there are no homeless people in SOMA, right?
    - pound 9y ago
      because there is zoning
- bluGill 9y ago
  Sure, in the downtown commercial areas. Every city I know of does not allow those skyscrapers to have apartments for rent, it is all for offices. (this is one of the reasons nobody in the US walks to work: there is no legal way to get a place to live near work for most people) Note that a skyscraper is probably expensive enough to build that they would not put tiny apartments in it anyway, but the more moderate sized buildings downtown could be a mix of apartments and offices resulting in a usable city.
  - adrianpike 9y ago
    > Every city I know of does not allow those skyscrapers to have apartments for rent, it is all for offices. Seattle, NYC, LA, Portland?
  - morgante 9y ago
    NYC is filled with plenty of residential skyscrapers.
- ShellGh0st 9y ago
  Compare this with midtown ATL, where there's a huge residential explosion around an equally blooming tech sector. It's what happens when the city government steps back and lets progress happens.
- 5thaccount 9y ago
  > Building affordable housing isn't a priority, But why should it be? Why is creating low cost housing in the bay area better than spending that money in, say, Sacramento? What are the individual, societal and area benefits of doing it on the bay area vs anywhere else in the state of California? I am being contrarian to be sure, Full disclosure: Australian with no dog in this fight. So I ask because Tyler Cowan (https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison-stripe-podcast-tyler-cowen-books-3e43cfe42d10 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison...) made the point that the Bay Area makes a lot of great global goods, and loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area. Given that these people pay taxes in California, why not find somewhere else to house less well to-do people? Somewhere less expensive, less productive and less likely to be problematic for the residents, would seem ideal. $1,000,000 in SF buys sweet FA, but that would 3 median priced houses in Sacramento, and it is less than 100 miles away. So I just wonder what the correct level is to do these things at: country, State, City, Suburb or street? I just think there are only so many dollars, why is the argument about where they are spent, rather than how effectively?
  - bjl 9y ago
    > loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area. That's an utterly ridiculous claim.
    - 5thaccount 9y ago
      It's not my claim, it is Tyler Cowan's claim. In case you are unsure who he is, pretty much everyone who is anyone holds Tyler as a hero, Malcolm Gladwell for one. So not ridiculous, not held by a random internet nobody, but thanks for your input ;)
  - nix0n 9y ago
    > loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area No, it's a tax on the landlords. How many producers of value are homeowners and not renters? (At least one person on HN, but I mean proportionally.)
- closeparen 9y ago
  >Building affordable housing isn't a priority, though, apparently. Man, this is infuriating. San Francisco isn't under a magic spell that makes affordable and market-rate housing distinct. They can be the same, like they are in the rest of the country, with enough housing. But people spouting this line will never let that happen, because the proposed projects aren't immediately cheap.
5thaccount 9y ago
https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison-stripe-podcast-tyler-cowen-books-3e43cfe42d10 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison... is a great take on this. From the transcript, and yes, this is a long quote, but I really love Tyler, and what he says always is considered and interesting, and the full quote is deserved: COLLISON: Restrictive urban construction and land use regulations. COWEN: They’re terrible. We should allow much more building. Much more of this country should be like Houston and parts of Texas. But that said, I’ve become a slight contrarian on this lately. I wonder if the Bay Area isn’t the one place in the world where building restrictions might make some sense because most of you want the restrictions. Even if not you in the room, you out there in this area. So removing the restrictions would be a tax. It would be great for the people who moved in. But if you’re all producing these amazing global public goods, and the federal government is going to raise taxes on you anyway, I promise this. I don’t care who wins the next five elections, your taxes are going up. State, city, local, whatever. And then we put this new tax on you and you all are the Atlases out there. I don’t know if loosening building here would tax your productivity or increase it. But I’d at least consider the notion. This is the one place in the world where we shouldn’t loosen building restrictions. COLLISON: Can you apply that argument in reverse? Do you think Silicon Valley would be better off if it had half the population? COWEN: I don’t live here. I don’t know how bad the traffic is, and I suspect the people who are the most productive have workarounds. They can afford to live where they want, for instance. COLLISON: I think a lot of us spend a lot of time in traffic. COWEN: But it seems to me, it’s a pretty finely honed structure. It’s evolved the way it has and to cut it in half or shrink it, it’s probably a big mistake. COLLISON: Just to make sure I understand, you’re saying the tax would be the other people around us? Our personal experiences of the area would somehow be diminished? COWEN: The general culture would change; it would be less intense. It would be like taking Florentine Renaissance and injecting into it 50,000 people from Naples. Nothing against Naples. I love Naples, in fact, more than Florence. But I suspect that would have been a mistake back then. So I worry, if you have too many people move into this uniquely weird, diverse monoculture, you could wreck it. Just a cautionary note, I’m agnostic, but I’ve started having this worry lately.
- clock_tower 9y ago
  Cowen's really illustrating how the upper-middle-class elite will fight savagely for their interests, regardless of what it means for their principles. Affordable housing is good _except for us_, high taxes are good _except for us_, immigration is good _except for us_, diversity is good _except for us_. I particularly can't get over his outright xenophobia at the end: "Keep the dirty foreigners out, but I still hate Trump!" He can't have it both ways; either live with immigration and learn how to make it work well (which is probably the better idea), or allow everyone else to be raging xenophobes just like he is.
fern12 9y ago
So true. I have thus far, seen the following comments in my (Mountain View) NextDoor feed, made by the anti-growth brigade: -Complaints about the removal of trees to accommodate bicycle lanes -Complaints about restriping/widening of bicycle lanes -Complaints about how the architecture of new apt buildings on El Camino Real is ruining the character of MV -Complaints about how the removal of historic buildings in downtown MV (by their landlords, who can no longer afford to maintain them) is also ruining the character of MV -Complaints about why are there so many RVs and campers parked on Shoreline -Complaints about why so many restaurants in downtown MV have a hiring shortage and quick turnover -Complaints about why the checkout lines in Safeway are so long and there aren't enough checkers -Complaints about the traffic on Shoreline (i.e. near Google) -Complaints about Google's attempt to add pre-fab housing And of course, if you imply that they should sell their $$$ house and move elsewhere, it becomes a discussion of how "my family has lived in MV for 3 generations, etc, who gives you the right to tell me how/when to move"
- muninn_ 9y ago
  > -Complaints about the removal of trees to accommodate bicycle lanes I would absolutely complain about that. Remove road lanes instead. Why would you remove trees? Are they idiots? The rest of the stuff (ruining the character, etc...) are fine. There's no reason people can't be upset that this area they moved in to is changing because everybody else wanted to follow suit. I wouldn't want to have moved to Mountain View then all of a sudden Google shows up and now I'm dealing with all this bullshit traffic. Send Google somewhere else. They don't need to be on the coast. You guys act like people don't have any right to wish to have their way of life preserved. Ridiculous.
  - fern12 9y ago
    >I would absolutely complain about that. Remove road lanes instead. Why would you remove trees? Are they idiots? Do you currently have a commute that involves Mountain View? Ever driven on Shoreline when there's both a concert and an accident on the 101? Ever gotten stuck on Rengstorff or Castro when there's a Caltrain incident? Sure, let's remove a road lane. Then all the traffic will back up and clog the residential streets.

by dsl 9y ago

abakker 9y ago

Don't forget that these are enforced by continual lawsuits. Neighbors sue each other for violating HOA regulations in my neighborhood. Don't even try to change the roofline on your crappy-looking 50s stucco house. If what everyone actually fights for is a conservation approach to the legacy housing market, is it really any surprise that we get a conservation approach to it? The sad thing is that the city otherwise has good policies, but housing is a morass of entrenched self interest.

pmoriarty 9y ago

"A 10 story building blocking MY view? No way!" There are quite a few skyscrapers in SF, actually. A new huge one was built for Salesforce recently. Building affordable housing isn't a priority, though, apparently.

pound 9y ago
skyscrapers are in SOMA. try to build one in mission/avenues
- irq11 9y ago
  Because there are no homeless people in SOMA, right?
  - pound 9y ago
    because there is zoning
bluGill 9y ago
Sure, in the downtown commercial areas. Every city I know of does not allow those skyscrapers to have apartments for rent, it is all for offices. (this is one of the reasons nobody in the US walks to work: there is no legal way to get a place to live near work for most people) Note that a skyscraper is probably expensive enough to build that they would not put tiny apartments in it anyway, but the more moderate sized buildings downtown could be a mix of apartments and offices resulting in a usable city.
- adrianpike 9y ago
  > Every city I know of does not allow those skyscrapers to have apartments for rent, it is all for offices. Seattle, NYC, LA, Portland?
- morgante 9y ago
  NYC is filled with plenty of residential skyscrapers.
ShellGh0st 9y ago
Compare this with midtown ATL, where there's a huge residential explosion around an equally blooming tech sector. It's what happens when the city government steps back and lets progress happens.
5thaccount 9y ago
> Building affordable housing isn't a priority, But why should it be? Why is creating low cost housing in the bay area better than spending that money in, say, Sacramento? What are the individual, societal and area benefits of doing it on the bay area vs anywhere else in the state of California? I am being contrarian to be sure, Full disclosure: Australian with no dog in this fight. So I ask because Tyler Cowan (https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison-stripe-podcast-tyler-cowen-books-3e43cfe42d10 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison...) made the point that the Bay Area makes a lot of great global goods, and loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area. Given that these people pay taxes in California, why not find somewhere else to house less well to-do people? Somewhere less expensive, less productive and less likely to be problematic for the residents, would seem ideal. $1,000,000 in SF buys sweet FA, but that would 3 median priced houses in Sacramento, and it is less than 100 miles away. So I just wonder what the correct level is to do these things at: country, State, City, Suburb or street? I just think there are only so many dollars, why is the argument about where they are spent, rather than how effectively?
- bjl 9y ago
  > loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area. That's an utterly ridiculous claim.
  - 5thaccount 9y ago
    It's not my claim, it is Tyler Cowan's claim. In case you are unsure who he is, pretty much everyone who is anyone holds Tyler as a hero, Malcolm Gladwell for one. So not ridiculous, not held by a random internet nobody, but thanks for your input ;)
- nix0n 9y ago
  > loosening housing regulation is effectively a tax on the current, extremely productive people that live in the Bay Area No, it's a tax on the landlords. How many producers of value are homeowners and not renters? (At least one person on HN, but I mean proportionally.)
closeparen 9y ago
>Building affordable housing isn't a priority, though, apparently. Man, this is infuriating. San Francisco isn't under a magic spell that makes affordable and market-rate housing distinct. They can be the same, like they are in the rest of the country, with enough housing. But people spouting this line will never let that happen, because the proposed projects aren't immediately cheap.

5thaccount 9y ago

https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison-stripe-podcast-tyler-cowen-books-3e43cfe42d10 https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/patrick-collison... is a great take on this. From the transcript, and yes, this is a long quote, but I really love Tyler, and what he says always is considered and interesting, and the full quote is deserved: COLLISON: Restrictive urban construction and land use regulations. COWEN: They’re terrible. We should allow much more building. Much more of this country should be like Houston and parts of Texas. But that said, I’ve become a slight contrarian on this lately. I wonder if the Bay Area isn’t the one place in the world where building restrictions might make some sense because most of you want the restrictions. Even if not you in the room, you out there in this area. So removing the restrictions would be a tax. It would be great for the people who moved in. But if you’re all producing these amazing global public goods, and the federal government is going to raise taxes on you anyway, I promise this. I don’t care who wins the next five elections, your taxes are going up. State, city, local, whatever. And then we put this new tax on you and you all are the Atlases out there. I don’t know if loosening building here would tax your productivity or increase it. But I’d at least consider the notion. This is the one place in the world where we shouldn’t loosen building restrictions. COLLISON: Can you apply that argument in reverse? Do you think Silicon Valley would be better off if it had half the population? COWEN: I don’t live here. I don’t know how bad the traffic is, and I suspect the people who are the most productive have workarounds. They can afford to live where they want, for instance. COLLISON: I think a lot of us spend a lot of time in traffic. COWEN: But it seems to me, it’s a pretty finely honed structure. It’s evolved the way it has and to cut it in half or shrink it, it’s probably a big mistake. COLLISON: Just to make sure I understand, you’re saying the tax would be the other people around us? Our personal experiences of the area would somehow be diminished? COWEN: The general culture would change; it would be less intense. It would be like taking Florentine Renaissance and injecting into it 50,000 people from Naples. Nothing against Naples. I love Naples, in fact, more than Florence. But I suspect that would have been a mistake back then. So I worry, if you have too many people move into this uniquely weird, diverse monoculture, you could wreck it. Just a cautionary note, I’m agnostic, but I’ve started having this worry lately.

clock_tower 9y ago
Cowen's really illustrating how the upper-middle-class elite will fight savagely for their interests, regardless of what it means for their principles. Affordable housing is good _except for us_, high taxes are good _except for us_, immigration is good _except for us_, diversity is good _except for us_. I particularly can't get over his outright xenophobia at the end: "Keep the dirty foreigners out, but I still hate Trump!" He can't have it both ways; either live with immigration and learn how to make it work well (which is probably the better idea), or allow everyone else to be raging xenophobes just like he is.

fern12 9y ago

So true. I have thus far, seen the following comments in my (Mountain View) NextDoor feed, made by the anti-growth brigade: -Complaints about the removal of trees to accommodate bicycle lanes -Complaints about restriping/widening of bicycle lanes -Complaints about how the architecture of new apt buildings on El Camino Real is ruining the character of MV -Complaints about how the removal of historic buildings in downtown MV (by their landlords, who can no longer afford to maintain them) is also ruining the character of MV -Complaints about why are there so many RVs and campers parked on Shoreline -Complaints about why so many restaurants in downtown MV have a hiring shortage and quick turnover -Complaints about why the checkout lines in Safeway are so long and there aren't enough checkers -Complaints about the traffic on Shoreline (i.e. near Google) -Complaints about Google's attempt to add pre-fab housing And of course, if you imply that they should sell their $$$ house and move elsewhere, it becomes a discussion of how "my family has lived in MV for 3 generations, etc, who gives you the right to tell me how/when to move"

muninn_ 9y ago
> -Complaints about the removal of trees to accommodate bicycle lanes I would absolutely complain about that. Remove road lanes instead. Why would you remove trees? Are they idiots? The rest of the stuff (ruining the character, etc...) are fine. There's no reason people can't be upset that this area they moved in to is changing because everybody else wanted to follow suit. I wouldn't want to have moved to Mountain View then all of a sudden Google shows up and now I'm dealing with all this bullshit traffic. Send Google somewhere else. They don't need to be on the coast. You guys act like people don't have any right to wish to have their way of life preserved. Ridiculous.
- fern12 9y ago
  >I would absolutely complain about that. Remove road lanes instead. Why would you remove trees? Are they idiots? Do you currently have a commute that involves Mountain View? Ever driven on Shoreline when there's both a concert and an accident on the 101? Ever gotten stuck on Rengstorff or Castro when there's a Caltrain incident? Sure, let's remove a road lane. Then all the traffic will back up and clog the residential streets.