6 ms·

I started getting off at Powell station and I can attest to this article. I've commuted to NYC stations for over 4yrs and even though i've seen my share of home

I started getting off at Powell station and I can attest to this article. I've commuted to NYC stations for over 4yrs and even though i've seen my share of homelessness inside the NYC subway stations, it's nowhere as bad as SF BART station (Powell). Every day I see some weird stuff going on (it's at a point where it's no longer weird to me).

bradleyjg 9y ago
I don't know when you lived in NYC, but it has certainly gotten worse in the last few years. I'm tempted to date it from the start of the de Blasio administration but I couldn't swear to it.
- throwaway91111 9y ago
  How do the homeless survive the winter?
  - dmoy 9y ago
    Some can find shelter. Sometimes open vent grates on the ground provide heat (until they start putting spikes on those). Sometimes you can make fire someplace. Sometimes you have to migrate away. Or, you freeze to death...
  - sp332 9y ago
    Well if you die of a drug overdose, cancer, heart disease, assault, car accidents, or suicide, the cold weather can't get you. http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/03/at-least-212-homeless-people-died-in-fy-2015-report-shows-032657 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016... http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2017/01/homeless-deaths-in-new-york-city-increased-in-2016-108761 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2017...
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    In addition to what others have said, NYC is legally mandated to, and mostly does, provide sufficient shelter beds. Some homeless people for a mix of reasons, some quite rational, avoid these shelters. However on the coldest nights of the year they are an option even for people that would usually rather avoid them. A similar story applies for Rikers Island (jail) or the public hospital system.
- jkingsbery 9y ago
  I work in NYC. Not that I have hard evidence, but that seems about when it got worse to me too.
ben174 9y ago
I get off at Civic Center and it's astonishing how many used syringes I see on the ground by the escalators. Those needle tips are extremely dangerous and could be life changing if you happened to get punctured by one.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Sydney has sharps bins in public loos. It seems like a good idea to me, but I don't know if Australians like it, or if it actually works. Here's a description: http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-safety/alcohol-and-drugs/drug-safety/community-sharps http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-safe... And here's a map: https://www.safesharps.org.au/ https://www.safesharps.org.au/
  - glangdale 9y ago
    I don't think it's an issue for most people. The sharps bins look very medical so it is easy to forget that the users are potentially throwing away things other than insulin needles, especially if you're not wandering around looking to be angry about the fact that people inject drugs.
  - prawn 9y ago
    I'm in Australia and don't mind if there are sharps bins. They're easily ignored and generally placed high enough that curious kids don't get themselves in trouble. Whatever community/health experts deem best is fine by me.
jakelarkin 9y ago
+1 during my normal commute hours at Civic Center I've seen ... - used needles strewn about in busy areas - someone defecate on the station floor in broad daylight - meth/heroin deals - a dealer shaking down a high junkie for money owned on the platform - entire hallways/stairways that were no-go because of strung out transients - pretty much a third of BART cars have a homeless person sleeping off their high in them. I feel stressed and not safe during my commute, can't believe I pay $9/day for the privilege of commuting via a cesspool of human misery. Not being on Civic Center or Powell station or being able to take Transit Bus will definitely be a consideration for my next job hunt.
- Symbiote 9y ago
  Why isn't something done about this? Cleaning staff should remove the needles. Security or police arrest the dealers, and remove people loitering on stations or trains. Is it a lack of funding, laws, sympathy for the homeless, or ... what? I lived in London for ten years, and homeless people, or beggars, were extremely rare on public transport vehicles, and even rarer within stations. I don't know what combination of law and enforcement is used, and there are homeless people on the streets, but something prevents them from overtaking the transport system.
  - mahyarm 9y ago
    SF attitudes towards certain behaviors make hard to do what most cities do, which is arrest these people and make them go somewhere out of sight. There are cleaning staff going through the area cleaning stuff up. But people still are doing their crap and the laws are unenforced because of those political reasons. I also think SF police & the city decided the tenderloin was the homeless containment zone long time ago with SROs being there. That is also where the civic center station is.
  - jraines 9y ago
    I'll offer up this explanation from arch-conservative James Burnham (so please don't downvote the messenger) just for consideration on the idea that the "doing something about this", as SF tries so mightily, can make the problem worse. This is from 1964: But what exactly is Skid Row? In reality it is not, other than incidentally, a spatial concept, but a functional one. . . Skid Row is the end of the line, and there must be an end of the line somewhere. ... The whole [reform] operation has proved to be, inevitably, an ideological illusion. Since Skid Row is not a static place, it cannot be abolished or rubbed out. The most noticeable consequence of this anti-Skid Row campaign has been merely to diffuse Skid Row, for a while, throughout the City. I've elided a lot of supporting argument, the gist of which is that the denizens of Skid Row tend to form networks of support & attract institutions that maintain them. And while that level of maintenance looks (and is) rather squalid and miserable to outsiders, breaking it up is just replacing an organic support network with an artificial one which looks at the symptoms more than the roots. I can't speak to London except that I guarantee London has a Skid Row, even if it's not physically located in London, if that makes sense. Final disclaimer that I don't claim to have the answer, just pointing out one point of view that seems rather pertinent to 2017 SF despite being written 53 years prior, whatever moral valence you assign to the author & his politics.
cassieramen 9y ago
I moved to SF from New York a couple years ago. A huge difference in the homeless populations for me has been the aggressiveness of the SF homeless. I can't recall a single time in New York where a homeless person got in my face or yelled at me or anything of the like. Since being here I've had a full cup of (hopefully) soda thrown on me and been yelled at from a 3ft range multiple times. It's a surreal experience. I'm not sure what led to cultural difference.
- istorical 9y ago
  Bad politics, bad public policy, bad policing. https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-f... NYC used to be worse than SF is now. "Bryant Park, in the heart of midtown and adjacent to the New York Public Library, was an open-air drug market; Grand Central Terminal, a gigantic flophouse; the Port Authority Bus Terminal, “a grim gauntlet for bus passengers dodging beggars, drunks, thieves, and destitute drug addicts,” as the New York Times put it in 1992." NYC's "solution": "In sum, a diverse set of organizations in the city—pursuing their own interests and using various tactics and programs—all began trying to restore order to their domains. Further, in contrast with early sporadic efforts like Operation Crossroads, these attempts were implemented aggressively and persistently. Biederman, for example, worked on Bryant Park for 12 years. When Kiley was struggling to restore order in the subway, he had to withstand pressure from powerful opponents: the New York Civil Liberties Union, the mayor’s office (which had suggested bringing portable kitchens and showers into the subway for the homeless), the police commissioner, and the transit police. In fact, it was after the transit cops resisted Operation Enforcement, Kiley’s first effort to restore order, that he hired Bratton. By the early 1990s, these highly visible successes, especially in the subway, had begun to express themselves politically. Better than any other politician, Rudy Giuliani understood the pent-up demand for public order and built his successful 1993 run for mayor on quality-of-life themes. Once in office, he appointed Bratton, who had orchestrated the subway success and understood the importance of order maintenance, as New York’s police commissioner. Under Bratton, the NYPD brought enormous capacities to bear on the city’s crime problem—particularly Compstat, its tactical planning and accountability system, which identified where crimes were occurring and held local commanders responsible for their areas. Giuliani and Bratton also gave the force’s members a clear vision of the “business” of the NYPD and how their activities contributed to it. In short, a theory previously advocated largely by elites filtered down to—and inspired—line police officers, who had constituted a largely ignored and underused capacity."
dsl 9y ago
Does anyone know why enforcement hasn't been stepped up at the Market St. BART/MUNI stations? Powell is literally the core of our tourism market (Yes, Pier 39, which everyone gets to from Powell or Embarcadero), and all of the downtown business/banking. The two things SF can't afford to lose...

bradleyjg 9y ago

I don't know when you lived in NYC, but it has certainly gotten worse in the last few years. I'm tempted to date it from the start of the de Blasio administration but I couldn't swear to it.

throwaway91111 9y ago
How do the homeless survive the winter?
- dmoy 9y ago
  Some can find shelter. Sometimes open vent grates on the ground provide heat (until they start putting spikes on those). Sometimes you can make fire someplace. Sometimes you have to migrate away. Or, you freeze to death...
- sp332 9y ago
  Well if you die of a drug overdose, cancer, heart disease, assault, car accidents, or suicide, the cold weather can't get you. http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/03/at-least-212-homeless-people-died-in-fy-2015-report-shows-032657 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016... http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2017/01/homeless-deaths-in-new-york-city-increased-in-2016-108761 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2017...
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  In addition to what others have said, NYC is legally mandated to, and mostly does, provide sufficient shelter beds. Some homeless people for a mix of reasons, some quite rational, avoid these shelters. However on the coldest nights of the year they are an option even for people that would usually rather avoid them. A similar story applies for Rikers Island (jail) or the public hospital system.
jkingsbery 9y ago
I work in NYC. Not that I have hard evidence, but that seems about when it got worse to me too.

ben174 9y ago

I get off at Civic Center and it's astonishing how many used syringes I see on the ground by the escalators. Those needle tips are extremely dangerous and could be life changing if you happened to get punctured by one.

DanBC 9y ago
Sydney has sharps bins in public loos. It seems like a good idea to me, but I don't know if Australians like it, or if it actually works. Here's a description: http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-safety/alcohol-and-drugs/drug-safety/community-sharps http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/community/health-and-safe... And here's a map: https://www.safesharps.org.au/ https://www.safesharps.org.au/
- glangdale 9y ago
  I don't think it's an issue for most people. The sharps bins look very medical so it is easy to forget that the users are potentially throwing away things other than insulin needles, especially if you're not wandering around looking to be angry about the fact that people inject drugs.
- prawn 9y ago
  I'm in Australia and don't mind if there are sharps bins. They're easily ignored and generally placed high enough that curious kids don't get themselves in trouble. Whatever community/health experts deem best is fine by me.

jakelarkin 9y ago

+1 during my normal commute hours at Civic Center I've seen ... - used needles strewn about in busy areas - someone defecate on the station floor in broad daylight - meth/heroin deals - a dealer shaking down a high junkie for money owned on the platform - entire hallways/stairways that were no-go because of strung out transients - pretty much a third of BART cars have a homeless person sleeping off their high in them. I feel stressed and not safe during my commute, can't believe I pay $9/day for the privilege of commuting via a cesspool of human misery. Not being on Civic Center or Powell station or being able to take Transit Bus will definitely be a consideration for my next job hunt.

Symbiote 9y ago
Why isn't something done about this? Cleaning staff should remove the needles. Security or police arrest the dealers, and remove people loitering on stations or trains. Is it a lack of funding, laws, sympathy for the homeless, or ... what? I lived in London for ten years, and homeless people, or beggars, were extremely rare on public transport vehicles, and even rarer within stations. I don't know what combination of law and enforcement is used, and there are homeless people on the streets, but something prevents them from overtaking the transport system.
- mahyarm 9y ago
  SF attitudes towards certain behaviors make hard to do what most cities do, which is arrest these people and make them go somewhere out of sight. There are cleaning staff going through the area cleaning stuff up. But people still are doing their crap and the laws are unenforced because of those political reasons. I also think SF police & the city decided the tenderloin was the homeless containment zone long time ago with SROs being there. That is also where the civic center station is.
- jraines 9y ago
  I'll offer up this explanation from arch-conservative James Burnham (so please don't downvote the messenger) just for consideration on the idea that the "doing something about this", as SF tries so mightily, can make the problem worse. This is from 1964: But what exactly is Skid Row? In reality it is not, other than incidentally, a spatial concept, but a functional one. . . Skid Row is the end of the line, and there must be an end of the line somewhere. ... The whole [reform] operation has proved to be, inevitably, an ideological illusion. Since Skid Row is not a static place, it cannot be abolished or rubbed out. The most noticeable consequence of this anti-Skid Row campaign has been merely to diffuse Skid Row, for a while, throughout the City. I've elided a lot of supporting argument, the gist of which is that the denizens of Skid Row tend to form networks of support & attract institutions that maintain them. And while that level of maintenance looks (and is) rather squalid and miserable to outsiders, breaking it up is just replacing an organic support network with an artificial one which looks at the symptoms more than the roots. I can't speak to London except that I guarantee London has a Skid Row, even if it's not physically located in London, if that makes sense. Final disclaimer that I don't claim to have the answer, just pointing out one point of view that seems rather pertinent to 2017 SF despite being written 53 years prior, whatever moral valence you assign to the author & his politics.

cassieramen 9y ago

I moved to SF from New York a couple years ago. A huge difference in the homeless populations for me has been the aggressiveness of the SF homeless. I can't recall a single time in New York where a homeless person got in my face or yelled at me or anything of the like. Since being here I've had a full cup of (hopefully) soda thrown on me and been yelled at from a 3ft range multiple times. It's a surreal experience. I'm not sure what led to cultural difference.

istorical 9y ago
Bad politics, bad public policy, bad policing. https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-f... NYC used to be worse than SF is now. "Bryant Park, in the heart of midtown and adjacent to the New York Public Library, was an open-air drug market; Grand Central Terminal, a gigantic flophouse; the Port Authority Bus Terminal, “a grim gauntlet for bus passengers dodging beggars, drunks, thieves, and destitute drug addicts,” as the New York Times put it in 1992." NYC's "solution": "In sum, a diverse set of organizations in the city—pursuing their own interests and using various tactics and programs—all began trying to restore order to their domains. Further, in contrast with early sporadic efforts like Operation Crossroads, these attempts were implemented aggressively and persistently. Biederman, for example, worked on Bryant Park for 12 years. When Kiley was struggling to restore order in the subway, he had to withstand pressure from powerful opponents: the New York Civil Liberties Union, the mayor’s office (which had suggested bringing portable kitchens and showers into the subway for the homeless), the police commissioner, and the transit police. In fact, it was after the transit cops resisted Operation Enforcement, Kiley’s first effort to restore order, that he hired Bratton. By the early 1990s, these highly visible successes, especially in the subway, had begun to express themselves politically. Better than any other politician, Rudy Giuliani understood the pent-up demand for public order and built his successful 1993 run for mayor on quality-of-life themes. Once in office, he appointed Bratton, who had orchestrated the subway success and understood the importance of order maintenance, as New York’s police commissioner. Under Bratton, the NYPD brought enormous capacities to bear on the city’s crime problem—particularly Compstat, its tactical planning and accountability system, which identified where crimes were occurring and held local commanders responsible for their areas. Giuliani and Bratton also gave the force’s members a clear vision of the “business” of the NYPD and how their activities contributed to it. In short, a theory previously advocated largely by elites filtered down to—and inspired—line police officers, who had constituted a largely ignored and underused capacity."

dsl 9y ago

Does anyone know why enforcement hasn't been stepped up at the Market St. BART/MUNI stations? Powell is literally the core of our tourism market (Yes, Pier 39, which everyone gets to from Powell or Embarcadero), and all of the downtown business/banking. The two things SF can't afford to lose...