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i said this before and it was met with mostly hostility, but im still wondering... bitcoin has enabled ransomware, so its a boon to crooks. what has it done for

i said this before and it was met with mostly hostility, but im still wondering... bitcoin has enabled ransomware, so its a boon to crooks. what has it done for non-crooks? i dont mean conceptually (no fed! decentralized! etc. etc.), i mean since its come into being, what has it done for you personally? for me: i bought a vpn subscription, anonymously. probably not able to do that as easily without btc. but, i would personally trade that for not having ransomware attacks. thoughts?

scottLobster 9y ago
Depends on where you live. I doubt you'd have faced any repercussions for buying that VPN subscription with your credit card, but the governments of other countries might not be so understanding. Bitcoin should exist for the same reasons Tor exists. Just because Tor is used by child predators and of little practical use to the average Western citizen doesn't negate its positive value.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  "Just because Tor is used by child predators and of little practical use to the average Western citizen doesn't negate its positive value." you cant just say that and expect me to decide its worth it on balance, you need to make a case for it. maybe this isnt the place, but its a funny thing to just kind of assert. arguing that things should exist because there are potential upsides is missing the point, which is that the downsides may outweigh the upsides. its particularly bold to make that claim about tor- there must be a hell of an upside to justify the child predators...
  - KGIII 9y ago
    It enables secure, private, exchange of data. That is reason enough.
  - E6300 9y ago
    > its particularly bold to make that claim about tor- there must be a hell of an upside to justify the child predators Even if Tor didn't exist, there would be child pornography. Would there more, less, or just as much of it? That's difficult to say. It's also difficult to say how much easier it makes the lives of those fighting for freedom of speech. Thus, saying whether Tor is, overall, a "good" or "bad" technology would involve comparing two unknown quantities.
- ableton 9y ago
  I heard that the guy who invented TV thought it was going to be this amazing thing that would transit knowledge and learning like never before. After he saw all the junk they put on it, he regretted ever inventing it. The same could be said for the internet. A genius that invention that allows so much good in the world, yet the amount of mind-destroying, family-killing pornography on it makes one wonder how much better the world is with it. I think at the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that with every new tool comes the opportunity to use it for good or evil. So I wouldn't blame the tool, but rather the person who uses it for good purposes or for ill.
raw23 9y ago
Bitcoin is a neutral technology, think of it like cash. Buying illegal things is always done with cash but it doesn't mean we should get rid of cash altogether. Regardless even if we came to the collective decision that we wanted to get rid of bitcoin, its not feasible due to its decentralized nature.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  yes i agree its not going away. but im curious if public perception has shifted at all since it was first becoming popular. my opinion has changed.
- Kiro 9y ago
  > it doesn't mean we should get rid of cash altogether I can't remember the last time I saw physical cash. The only ones I know who are still using cash are drug dealers. Not saying it should be banned but it's almost gone in my country already.
  - stinos 9y ago
    Wow, out of interest, where do you live? Cash is still going strong in Western Europe.
    - kalleboo 9y ago
      His description matches Sweden
  - delecti 9y ago
    > The only ones I know who are still using cash are drug dealers I was about to say "that's not true, the pot stores are cash only too", before realizing that from the perspective of the Feds that's the same thing. So I guess my real answer is non-business transactions, like buying things on craigslist, or paying my cat sitter.
    - Kiro 9y ago
jpttsn 9y ago
Bitcoin hasn't enabled ransomware. There was ransomware before.
- dx034 9y ago
  How did that work? Sending money via western union? Wouldn't work in a large scale operation.
  - SippinLean 9y ago
    Via anonymous prepaid cash service, like what Reveton used. Supposedly the attackers made millions; to your credit some were eventually tracked down by following the payments. Unclear if it's because of the way they laundered the money. Fusob demanded payment in redemption codes for iTunes gift cards.
tomjen3 9y ago
Bitcoin, if it had arrived about ten years earlier, would have been one way for the people in Venezuela to store some value and it may one day allow people who want to run away from their country to bring more of their wealth with them. However crooks are always going to be among the early adopters, so I my guess i my answer would be that it has limited value, right now.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  weird that this gets downvoted, its a good response and i think a worthy point.
dotancohen 9y ago
> i mean since [bitcoin] [has] come into being, what has it done for you personally? You mean, besides the roads, and the wine, and the aquaduct?
runeks 9y ago
> but, i would personally trade that for not having ransomware attacks. You can't go back in time and "undo" Bitcoin. If you criminalize Bitcoin, crooks might very well continue to use it, if it's their best option. It won't be as financially liquid, of course, but the crooks will just tweak their prices to account for this. Either a more efficient underground payment system will be used, if Bitcoin were criminalized, or Bitcoin would continue to be used. The proverbial cat's out the bag: crooks have access to Bitcoin code, too, and can easily replicate a blockchain to create CrookCoin. You can't truly prevent criminals from doing stuff using laws, since we call them criminals in the first place because they seemingly have little reverence for laws.

scottLobster 9y ago

Depends on where you live. I doubt you'd have faced any repercussions for buying that VPN subscription with your credit card, but the governments of other countries might not be so understanding. Bitcoin should exist for the same reasons Tor exists. Just because Tor is used by child predators and of little practical use to the average Western citizen doesn't negate its positive value.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago
"Just because Tor is used by child predators and of little practical use to the average Western citizen doesn't negate its positive value." you cant just say that and expect me to decide its worth it on balance, you need to make a case for it. maybe this isnt the place, but its a funny thing to just kind of assert. arguing that things should exist because there are potential upsides is missing the point, which is that the downsides may outweigh the upsides. its particularly bold to make that claim about tor- there must be a hell of an upside to justify the child predators...
- KGIII 9y ago
  It enables secure, private, exchange of data. That is reason enough.
- E6300 9y ago
  > its particularly bold to make that claim about tor- there must be a hell of an upside to justify the child predators Even if Tor didn't exist, there would be child pornography. Would there more, less, or just as much of it? That's difficult to say. It's also difficult to say how much easier it makes the lives of those fighting for freedom of speech. Thus, saying whether Tor is, overall, a "good" or "bad" technology would involve comparing two unknown quantities.
ableton 9y ago
I heard that the guy who invented TV thought it was going to be this amazing thing that would transit knowledge and learning like never before. After he saw all the junk they put on it, he regretted ever inventing it. The same could be said for the internet. A genius that invention that allows so much good in the world, yet the amount of mind-destroying, family-killing pornography on it makes one wonder how much better the world is with it. I think at the end of the day, it comes down to the fact that with every new tool comes the opportunity to use it for good or evil. So I wouldn't blame the tool, but rather the person who uses it for good purposes or for ill.

raw23 9y ago

Bitcoin is a neutral technology, think of it like cash. Buying illegal things is always done with cash but it doesn't mean we should get rid of cash altogether. Regardless even if we came to the collective decision that we wanted to get rid of bitcoin, its not feasible due to its decentralized nature.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago
yes i agree its not going away. but im curious if public perception has shifted at all since it was first becoming popular. my opinion has changed.
Kiro 9y ago
> it doesn't mean we should get rid of cash altogether I can't remember the last time I saw physical cash. The only ones I know who are still using cash are drug dealers. Not saying it should be banned but it's almost gone in my country already.
- stinos 9y ago
  Wow, out of interest, where do you live? Cash is still going strong in Western Europe.
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    His description matches Sweden
- delecti 9y ago
  > The only ones I know who are still using cash are drug dealers I was about to say "that's not true, the pot stores are cash only too", before realizing that from the perspective of the Feds that's the same thing. So I guess my real answer is non-business transactions, like buying things on craigslist, or paying my cat sitter.
  - Kiro 9y ago

jpttsn 9y ago

Bitcoin hasn't enabled ransomware. There was ransomware before.

dx034 9y ago
How did that work? Sending money via western union? Wouldn't work in a large scale operation.
- SippinLean 9y ago
  Via anonymous prepaid cash service, like what Reveton used. Supposedly the attackers made millions; to your credit some were eventually tracked down by following the payments. Unclear if it's because of the way they laundered the money. Fusob demanded payment in redemption codes for iTunes gift cards.

tomjen3 9y ago

Bitcoin, if it had arrived about ten years earlier, would have been one way for the people in Venezuela to store some value and it may one day allow people who want to run away from their country to bring more of their wealth with them. However crooks are always going to be among the early adopters, so I my guess i my answer would be that it has limited value, right now.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago
weird that this gets downvoted, its a good response and i think a worthy point.

dotancohen 9y ago

> i mean since [bitcoin] [has] come into being, what has it done for you personally? You mean, besides the roads, and the wine, and the aquaduct?

runeks 9y ago

> but, i would personally trade that for not having ransomware attacks. You can't go back in time and "undo" Bitcoin. If you criminalize Bitcoin, crooks might very well continue to use it, if it's their best option. It won't be as financially liquid, of course, but the crooks will just tweak their prices to account for this. Either a more efficient underground payment system will be used, if Bitcoin were criminalized, or Bitcoin would continue to be used. The proverbial cat's out the bag: crooks have access to Bitcoin code, too, and can easily replicate a blockchain to create CrookCoin. You can't truly prevent criminals from doing stuff using laws, since we call them criminals in the first place because they seemingly have little reverence for laws.