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I feel like I am repeating myself. When ESTA was introduced, only a single requirement was added: "You need to fill out that online form". Somehow, the eligibil

I feel like I am repeating myself. When ESTA was introduced, only a single requirement was added: "You need to fill out that online form". Somehow, the eligibility was determined before it was introduced. The things you list (nationality, passport validity, ...) are all easily checked before boarding by airlines. This happens everywhere in the world, for all kinds of destinations. An online form is not a reliable way to determine your citizenship anyway. You seem to be unaware that even if you fulfil the formal requirements, ESTA applications can and are being denied by the system (and are sometimes checked by hand which can take a few days). This can have all kinds of reasons. I know at least two persons that were denied their ESTA even though they ticked off all the requirements. Both later got a B1/B2 visa without any trouble.

ubernostrum 9y ago
Yes, somehow eligibility was determined before ESTA existed. Now ESTA exists, and ESTA is the thing that determines eligibility. I do not see how this is relevant in any way, or even what it is you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about, because every time I tell you how the system works you go running off to some irrelevant other thing. Please either explain clearly what point you are trying to make, or stop.
- germanier 9y ago
  This sounds like something Gogolian bureaucrats would say. "The purpose of filling out form A38 is to have form A38 filled out." Modern bureaucracy usually doesn't introduce requirements for the heck of it. Checking citizenship worked fine before the introduction of ESTA so "checking citizenship" was not the reason the system was introduced or is still in place. It does that as well but that is not the point of ESTA. This is all I wanted to tell you.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    The fact that the visa waiver program existed earlier has absolutely no relevance. Was there a way to check requirements prior to ESTA being created? Yes. But now, ESTA is the way requirements are checked for the visa waiver program. That is the purpose for which ESTA exists and for which it was created. That is ESTA's job. That is what ESTA does. ESTA is not some separate data-gathering or visa-issuing system; its sole and entire purpose for existing is to be the thing which, now -- and yes, once upon a time a system existed for this which was not ESTA, but that is not relevant because now ESTA is the thing which does this, because it is possible for one thing to replace another thing -- checks requirements for the visa waiver program. So, hopefully you will finally, for the love of all that is holy, agree that ESTA is the thing which checks requirements for the visa waiver program. The visa waiver program is tied ultimately to one, exactly one, and only one thing: "Are you a citizen of a country designated as part of the Visa Waiver Program? (Yes/No)". Everything else is secondary to that. Everything else is details. Everything else is bureaucratic requirements like checking how long it'll be until your passport expires or looking for red flags like not having a return ticket, and those things get checked on everybody, even people who are getting visas. Meanwhile, citizenship of a visa-waiver country is the sine qua non of the visa waiver program and thus is the sine qua non of ESTA "approval" since ESTA's sole purpose is to check the requirements of the visa waiver program.
    - germanier 9y ago
      Usually if things are replaced for another there is a reason. If you arguments are not your thing, I can only appeal to authority, namely the people that created the system in the first place: The Conference agrees on the need for significant security enhancements to the entire Visa Waiver Program as set forth in the Senate bill and to the implementation of the electronic travel authorization system prior to permitting the Secretary to admit new countries under his new waiver authority. The Conference mandates that the Secretary develop such an electronic travel authorization system to collect biographical and such other information from each prospective Visa Waiver Program traveler necessary to determine whether the alien is eligible to travel under the program and whether a law enforcement or security risk exists in permitting the alien to travel to the United States. The Conference believes the Secretary should check the information collected in the electronic travel authorization system against all appropriate databases, including lost and stolen passport databases such as that maintained by Interpol. The Conference believes that checking travelers from Visa Waiver Program countries against all appropriate watch lists and databases will greatly enhance the overall security of the Visa Waiver Program. https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/110th-congress/house-report/259/1 https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/110th-congress... As you see, the main stated purpose is not the check citizenship but to query various databases in advance. (For completeness I want to add that nowadays "You haven't travelled to some countries" is another requirement to use the VWP. The ESTA application also asks for things visa applications do not, such as the names of your social media accounts.)
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        You are interpreting my statement as "there are literally no other questions on the ESTA form other than citizenship and that's the only thing it looks at". That is not what I said, and you need to stop assuming that's what I said. ESTA exists to check eligibility for the visa waiver program. The primary criterion of the visa waiver program is... your citizenship. Everything else is secondary. All that stuff in your big quote? It's stuff that the US wants to check on everybody. The fact that ESTA checks it does not mean that ESTA is suddenly not a gatekeeper for the visa waiver program, or that ESTA is doing special extra checks above and beyond anything else, or that ESTA is somehow secretly doing something other than visa-waiver eligibility. The fact that ESTA checks it simply means that everybody, including people eligible for visa waiver, will get checked on those things. The difference between visa waiver and non-visa-waiver is not whether those checks are done; it's what country you're a citizen of. ESTA checks those other things because they have to be checked no matter what, and doing them in the same form makes things more efficient. Period.

ubernostrum 9y ago

Yes, somehow eligibility was determined before ESTA existed. Now ESTA exists, and ESTA is the thing that determines eligibility. I do not see how this is relevant in any way, or even what it is you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about, because every time I tell you how the system works you go running off to some irrelevant other thing. Please either explain clearly what point you are trying to make, or stop.

germanier 9y ago
This sounds like something Gogolian bureaucrats would say. "The purpose of filling out form A38 is to have form A38 filled out." Modern bureaucracy usually doesn't introduce requirements for the heck of it. Checking citizenship worked fine before the introduction of ESTA so "checking citizenship" was not the reason the system was introduced or is still in place. It does that as well but that is not the point of ESTA. This is all I wanted to tell you.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  The fact that the visa waiver program existed earlier has absolutely no relevance. Was there a way to check requirements prior to ESTA being created? Yes. But now, ESTA is the way requirements are checked for the visa waiver program. That is the purpose for which ESTA exists and for which it was created. That is ESTA's job. That is what ESTA does. ESTA is not some separate data-gathering or visa-issuing system; its sole and entire purpose for existing is to be the thing which, now -- and yes, once upon a time a system existed for this which was not ESTA, but that is not relevant because now ESTA is the thing which does this, because it is possible for one thing to replace another thing -- checks requirements for the visa waiver program. So, hopefully you will finally, for the love of all that is holy, agree that ESTA is the thing which checks requirements for the visa waiver program. The visa waiver program is tied ultimately to one, exactly one, and only one thing: "Are you a citizen of a country designated as part of the Visa Waiver Program? (Yes/No)". Everything else is secondary to that. Everything else is details. Everything else is bureaucratic requirements like checking how long it'll be until your passport expires or looking for red flags like not having a return ticket, and those things get checked on everybody, even people who are getting visas. Meanwhile, citizenship of a visa-waiver country is the sine qua non of the visa waiver program and thus is the sine qua non of ESTA "approval" since ESTA's sole purpose is to check the requirements of the visa waiver program.
  - germanier 9y ago
    Usually if things are replaced for another there is a reason. If you arguments are not your thing, I can only appeal to authority, namely the people that created the system in the first place: The Conference agrees on the need for significant security enhancements to the entire Visa Waiver Program as set forth in the Senate bill and to the implementation of the electronic travel authorization system prior to permitting the Secretary to admit new countries under his new waiver authority. The Conference mandates that the Secretary develop such an electronic travel authorization system to collect biographical and such other information from each prospective Visa Waiver Program traveler necessary to determine whether the alien is eligible to travel under the program and whether a law enforcement or security risk exists in permitting the alien to travel to the United States. The Conference believes the Secretary should check the information collected in the electronic travel authorization system against all appropriate databases, including lost and stolen passport databases such as that maintained by Interpol. The Conference believes that checking travelers from Visa Waiver Program countries against all appropriate watch lists and databases will greatly enhance the overall security of the Visa Waiver Program. https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/110th-congress/house-report/259/1 https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/110th-congress... As you see, the main stated purpose is not the check citizenship but to query various databases in advance. (For completeness I want to add that nowadays "You haven't travelled to some countries" is another requirement to use the VWP. The ESTA application also asks for things visa applications do not, such as the names of your social media accounts.)
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      You are interpreting my statement as "there are literally no other questions on the ESTA form other than citizenship and that's the only thing it looks at". That is not what I said, and you need to stop assuming that's what I said. ESTA exists to check eligibility for the visa waiver program. The primary criterion of the visa waiver program is... your citizenship. Everything else is secondary. All that stuff in your big quote? It's stuff that the US wants to check on everybody. The fact that ESTA checks it does not mean that ESTA is suddenly not a gatekeeper for the visa waiver program, or that ESTA is doing special extra checks above and beyond anything else, or that ESTA is somehow secretly doing something other than visa-waiver eligibility. The fact that ESTA checks it simply means that everybody, including people eligible for visa waiver, will get checked on those things. The difference between visa waiver and non-visa-waiver is not whether those checks are done; it's what country you're a citizen of. ESTA checks those other things because they have to be checked no matter what, and doing them in the same form makes things more efficient. Period.