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The Visa Waiver Program was in place before ESTA was introduced. Before that, the airline took a look at your passport and then a list of allowed nationalities.

The Visa Waiver Program was in place before ESTA was introduced. Before that, the airline took a look at your passport and then a list of allowed nationalities. Having the traveller fill out an online form does not change this requirement.

ubernostrum 9y ago
ESTA is the system which determines eligibility for the Visa Waiver Program. That is the sole and entire purpose of ESTA. That is why ESTA was created. Your comment that VWP existed earlier is not a disproof of this and has zero relevance. As such, your mention of that gives an extremely strong indication that you do not in fact understand what it is you are arguing about. ESTA's purpose is to determine eligibility for VWP. VWP is based on citizenship of a participating country. All other things asked for and evaluated by ESTA are things which any traveler, entering via any legal means, can and usually will also be evaluated on. For example, ESTA will usually verify that you have a passport which is valid for at least six months beyond your scheduled date of departure from the United States. This is not a unique requirement that ESTA, only ESTA, and nothing else anywhere other than ESTA imposes. A minimum amount of remaining passport validity is an incredibly common requirements, not just of the United States but of practically every country in the world.
- germanier 9y ago
  I feel like I am repeating myself. When ESTA was introduced, only a single requirement was added: "You need to fill out that online form". Somehow, the eligibility was determined before it was introduced. The things you list (nationality, passport validity, ...) are all easily checked before boarding by airlines. This happens everywhere in the world, for all kinds of destinations. An online form is not a reliable way to determine your citizenship anyway. You seem to be unaware that even if you fulfil the formal requirements, ESTA applications can and are being denied by the system (and are sometimes checked by hand which can take a few days). This can have all kinds of reasons. I know at least two persons that were denied their ESTA even though they ticked off all the requirements. Both later got a B1/B2 visa without any trouble.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    Yes, somehow eligibility was determined before ESTA existed. Now ESTA exists, and ESTA is the thing that determines eligibility. I do not see how this is relevant in any way, or even what it is you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about, because every time I tell you how the system works you go running off to some irrelevant other thing. Please either explain clearly what point you are trying to make, or stop.
    - germanier 9y ago
      This sounds like something Gogolian bureaucrats would say. "The purpose of filling out form A38 is to have form A38 filled out." Modern bureaucracy usually doesn't introduce requirements for the heck of it. Checking citizenship worked fine before the introduction of ESTA so "checking citizenship" was not the reason the system was introduced or is still in place. It does that as well but that is not the point of ESTA. This is all I wanted to tell you.
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        The fact that the visa waiver program existed earlier has absolutely no relevance. Was there a way to check requirements prior to ESTA being created? Yes. But now, ESTA is the way requirements are checked for the visa waiver program. That is the purpose for which ESTA exists and for which it was created. That is ESTA's job. That is what ESTA does. ESTA is not some separate data-gathering or visa-issuing system; its sole and entire purpose for existing is to be the thing which, now -- and yes, once upon a time a system existed for this which was not ESTA, but that is not relevant because now ESTA is the thing which does this, because it is possible for one thing to replace another thing -- checks requirements for the visa waiver program. So, hopefully you will finally, for the love of all that is holy, agree that ESTA is the thing which checks requirements for the visa waiver program. The visa waiver program is tied ultimately to one, exactly one, and only one thing: "Are you a citizen of a country designated as part of the Visa Waiver Program? (Yes/No)". Everything else is secondary to that. Everything else is details. Everything else is bureaucratic requirements like checking how long it'll be until your passport expires or looking for red flags like not having a return ticket, and those things get checked on everybody, even people who are getting visas. Meanwhile, citizenship of a visa-waiver country is the sine qua non of the visa waiver program and thus is the sine qua non of ESTA "approval" since ESTA's sole purpose is to check the requirements of the visa waiver program.

ubernostrum 9y ago

ESTA is the system which determines eligibility for the Visa Waiver Program. That is the sole and entire purpose of ESTA. That is why ESTA was created. Your comment that VWP existed earlier is not a disproof of this and has zero relevance. As such, your mention of that gives an extremely strong indication that you do not in fact understand what it is you are arguing about. ESTA's purpose is to determine eligibility for VWP. VWP is based on citizenship of a participating country. All other things asked for and evaluated by ESTA are things which any traveler, entering via any legal means, can and usually will also be evaluated on. For example, ESTA will usually verify that you have a passport which is valid for at least six months beyond your scheduled date of departure from the United States. This is not a unique requirement that ESTA, only ESTA, and nothing else anywhere other than ESTA imposes. A minimum amount of remaining passport validity is an incredibly common requirements, not just of the United States but of practically every country in the world.

germanier 9y ago
I feel like I am repeating myself. When ESTA was introduced, only a single requirement was added: "You need to fill out that online form". Somehow, the eligibility was determined before it was introduced. The things you list (nationality, passport validity, ...) are all easily checked before boarding by airlines. This happens everywhere in the world, for all kinds of destinations. An online form is not a reliable way to determine your citizenship anyway. You seem to be unaware that even if you fulfil the formal requirements, ESTA applications can and are being denied by the system (and are sometimes checked by hand which can take a few days). This can have all kinds of reasons. I know at least two persons that were denied their ESTA even though they ticked off all the requirements. Both later got a B1/B2 visa without any trouble.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  Yes, somehow eligibility was determined before ESTA existed. Now ESTA exists, and ESTA is the thing that determines eligibility. I do not see how this is relevant in any way, or even what it is you are trying to tell me I'm wrong about, because every time I tell you how the system works you go running off to some irrelevant other thing. Please either explain clearly what point you are trying to make, or stop.
  - germanier 9y ago
    This sounds like something Gogolian bureaucrats would say. "The purpose of filling out form A38 is to have form A38 filled out." Modern bureaucracy usually doesn't introduce requirements for the heck of it. Checking citizenship worked fine before the introduction of ESTA so "checking citizenship" was not the reason the system was introduced or is still in place. It does that as well but that is not the point of ESTA. This is all I wanted to tell you.
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      The fact that the visa waiver program existed earlier has absolutely no relevance. Was there a way to check requirements prior to ESTA being created? Yes. But now, ESTA is the way requirements are checked for the visa waiver program. That is the purpose for which ESTA exists and for which it was created. That is ESTA's job. That is what ESTA does. ESTA is not some separate data-gathering or visa-issuing system; its sole and entire purpose for existing is to be the thing which, now -- and yes, once upon a time a system existed for this which was not ESTA, but that is not relevant because now ESTA is the thing which does this, because it is possible for one thing to replace another thing -- checks requirements for the visa waiver program. So, hopefully you will finally, for the love of all that is holy, agree that ESTA is the thing which checks requirements for the visa waiver program. The visa waiver program is tied ultimately to one, exactly one, and only one thing: "Are you a citizen of a country designated as part of the Visa Waiver Program? (Yes/No)". Everything else is secondary to that. Everything else is details. Everything else is bureaucratic requirements like checking how long it'll be until your passport expires or looking for red flags like not having a return ticket, and those things get checked on everybody, even people who are getting visas. Meanwhile, citizenship of a visa-waiver country is the sine qua non of the visa waiver program and thus is the sine qua non of ESTA "approval" since ESTA's sole purpose is to check the requirements of the visa waiver program.