7 ms·

What puzzles me is that the ESTA application was approved in the first place. If they were going to deny him entry, why approve it? Could there be a more benig

What puzzles me is that the ESTA application was approved in the first place. If they were going to deny him entry, why approve it? Could there be a more benign explanation for this issue? For example: his ESTA approval expired (it's valid for two years), or the data entered on the ESTA form did not exactly match his passport data (special characters, middle names, etc.)

ubernostrum 9y ago
The online ESTA form does not "approve" someone to enter the US. The online ESTA form is required to determine if you're in a population that's generally eligible for visa-free entry (so that the airline and other systems know whether to require a visa for you). Filling out the ESTA form does not grant a visa, does not grant the right to enter the US, and does not even guarantee you'll be allowed onto the plane. It simply says "Yes, you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US".
- germanier 9y ago
  This is simply not true (I posted the exact message it shows you at the end of the process somewhere else in this thread – it explicitly contains the phrase "approved and authorized to travel"). Yes, it does not guarantee you entry. However, it does much more than just to check whether you have a required nationality. If that were all, the system weren't needed. Practically every country has visa-free entry for some nationalities and such travel authorisation systems are very rare among them. Airline know how to check if you have one of the visa-free nationalities and do so every day everywhere in the world (probably much more reliable than having the travel fill out a form, too – they even check again in the case of the US, as we see in this example). The US introduced the ESTA system much later than visa-free travel for certain nationalities.
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    And as I said in my other reply to you: the wording you are citing is terrible and inaccurate and you should never, ever, ever, EVER, rely on it as an exhaustive legally-binding declaration.
    - germanier 9y ago
      This reply was not at all about the wording but about the fact that the system does more than just checking whether "you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US". If that were all, it would be useless. Unfortunately as a non-US citizen I have to rely on the system. The alternative would be getting a B1/B2-visa but this doesn't change the fact that I could still be denied entry. (Of course this is the same, I could be denied entry to any non-EU country if they wish so.)
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        Citizenship is the primary determinant of ESTA, because ESTA is the feeder of the Visa Waiver Program which in turn is based entirely on citizenship. Everything else in ESTA is largely just duplicating requirements that would be imposed without ESTA (such as remaining validity of passport, whether you have a return ticket, purpose of visit, etc.).
        germanier 9y ago
        The Visa Waiver Program was in place before ESTA was introduced. Before that, the airline took a look at your passport and then a list of allowed nationalities. Having the traveller fill out an online form does not change this requirement.
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        ESTA is the system which determines eligibility for the Visa Waiver Program. That is the sole and entire purpose of ESTA. That is why ESTA was created. Your comment that VWP existed earlier is not a disproof of this and has zero relevance. As such, your mention of that gives an extremely strong indication that you do not in fact understand what it is you are arguing about. ESTA's purpose is to determine eligibility for VWP. VWP is based on citizenship of a participating country. All other things asked for and evaluated by ESTA are things which any traveler, entering via any legal means, can and usually will also be evaluated on. For example, ESTA will usually verify that you have a passport which is valid for at least six months beyond your scheduled date of departure from the United States. This is not a unique requirement that ESTA, only ESTA, and nothing else anywhere other than ESTA imposes. A minimum amount of remaining passport validity is an incredibly common requirements, not just of the United States but of practically every country in the world.
- ckastner 9y ago
  > The online ESTA form does not "approve" someone to enter the US I did not claim that it did. I was speaking only of the ESTA application itself.
thecopy 9y ago
>why approve it? It is automatic, there is no human oversight to it as far as i know.
- ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
  What is the point of it then?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - johansch 9y ago
    To extract $14 per visitor.
- ckastner 9y ago
  The point is that if his name was on some blacklist or no-fly-list, then this should have had its effect during the (automated) ESTA application process.
  - bonzini 9y ago
    ESTA is valid two years. Maybe it appeared on the list only recently.

ubernostrum 9y ago

The online ESTA form does not "approve" someone to enter the US. The online ESTA form is required to determine if you're in a population that's generally eligible for visa-free entry (so that the airline and other systems know whether to require a visa for you). Filling out the ESTA form does not grant a visa, does not grant the right to enter the US, and does not even guarantee you'll be allowed onto the plane. It simply says "Yes, you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US".

germanier 9y ago
This is simply not true (I posted the exact message it shows you at the end of the process somewhere else in this thread – it explicitly contains the phrase "approved and authorized to travel"). Yes, it does not guarantee you entry. However, it does much more than just to check whether you have a required nationality. If that were all, the system weren't needed. Practically every country has visa-free entry for some nationalities and such travel authorisation systems are very rare among them. Airline know how to check if you have one of the visa-free nationalities and do so every day everywhere in the world (probably much more reliable than having the travel fill out a form, too – they even check again in the case of the US, as we see in this example). The US introduced the ESTA system much later than visa-free travel for certain nationalities.
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  And as I said in my other reply to you: the wording you are citing is terrible and inaccurate and you should never, ever, ever, EVER, rely on it as an exhaustive legally-binding declaration.
  - germanier 9y ago
    This reply was not at all about the wording but about the fact that the system does more than just checking whether "you appear to be a citizen of a country which, in general, has visa-free entry to the US". If that were all, it would be useless. Unfortunately as a non-US citizen I have to rely on the system. The alternative would be getting a B1/B2-visa but this doesn't change the fact that I could still be denied entry. (Of course this is the same, I could be denied entry to any non-EU country if they wish so.)
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      Citizenship is the primary determinant of ESTA, because ESTA is the feeder of the Visa Waiver Program which in turn is based entirely on citizenship. Everything else in ESTA is largely just duplicating requirements that would be imposed without ESTA (such as remaining validity of passport, whether you have a return ticket, purpose of visit, etc.).
      - germanier 9y ago
        The Visa Waiver Program was in place before ESTA was introduced. Before that, the airline took a look at your passport and then a list of allowed nationalities. Having the traveller fill out an online form does not change this requirement.
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        ESTA is the system which determines eligibility for the Visa Waiver Program. That is the sole and entire purpose of ESTA. That is why ESTA was created. Your comment that VWP existed earlier is not a disproof of this and has zero relevance. As such, your mention of that gives an extremely strong indication that you do not in fact understand what it is you are arguing about. ESTA's purpose is to determine eligibility for VWP. VWP is based on citizenship of a participating country. All other things asked for and evaluated by ESTA are things which any traveler, entering via any legal means, can and usually will also be evaluated on. For example, ESTA will usually verify that you have a passport which is valid for at least six months beyond your scheduled date of departure from the United States. This is not a unique requirement that ESTA, only ESTA, and nothing else anywhere other than ESTA imposes. A minimum amount of remaining passport validity is an incredibly common requirements, not just of the United States but of practically every country in the world.
ckastner 9y ago
> The online ESTA form does not "approve" someone to enter the US I did not claim that it did. I was speaking only of the ESTA application itself.

thecopy 9y ago

>why approve it? It is automatic, there is no human oversight to it as far as i know.

ajeet_dhaliwal 9y ago
What is the point of it then?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- johansch 9y ago
  To extract $14 per visitor.
ckastner 9y ago
The point is that if his name was on some blacklist or no-fly-list, then this should have had its effect during the (automated) ESTA application process.
- bonzini 9y ago
  ESTA is valid two years. Maybe it appeared on the list only recently.