5 ms·

My feeling is that I read stories like these pretty often. That somebody was denied entry or arrested or humiliated while entering the USA. Is this because it h

by TekMol 9y ago

My feeling is that I read stories like these pretty often. That somebody was denied entry or arrested or humiliated while entering the USA. Is this because it happens more often in the USA then in other countries? Or is there some kind of reporting bias at play?

kyrra 9y ago
This was at his local airport in Sweden. To quote some tweets: "They denied me entry on ESTA with no explanation. Already at check-in in Sweden. =( or rather instead of check-in" "I only got to the airport locally. My passport was flagged somehow so the airline wouldn't let me check in, called to ask why... So they say" Edit: ESTA is this: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ So the DHS denied him for some reason.
- Taniwha 9y ago
  but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved' - you use this as a basis for booking a flight and travelling, if they're going to take it back without telling you (they have your email address) that really sucks, kind of passive aggressive
  - the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
    > but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved' FWIW, the last esta before the current one was not immediately approved for me. I did however get a mail after a while that it was approved and i get consistently mailed a month before it expires.
  - iamtew 9y ago
    They don't seem to do the check when you apply. Years ago I fat-fingered my passport number, the ESTA went through fine, but I was refused at the airport due to my typo. I had to make a new one on the spot, was no problem, but it seems that they will just approve the ESTA when applying for it, and then later refuse you if they want.
    - koolba 9y ago
      It'd be very funny if all of this boils down to him having a typo entering his info.
    - dx034 9y ago
      They sometimes check. My last two ESTA renewals took 1 day because of some manual checks. Went through in the end. Know others who had the same experience so I guess they are performing some background checks.
    - fnordfnordfnord 9y ago
      So the lesson is apply for ESTA as late as possible?
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    ESTA does not tell you you're "approved" -- it simply tells you whether or not you are in one of the eligible populations for visa-free entry to the US. Nothing in ESTA guarantees you'll be allowed into the US, or even to board your plane.
    - germanier 9y ago
      It literally tells you > Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program. It then goes on to say (but this is the same for visas as well): > This does not guarantee admission to the United States; a Customs and Border protection (CBP) officer at a port of entry will have the final determination.
      - ubernostrum 9y ago
        I'm not disagreeing that the web page says that. But what it says is terrible inaccurate wording. ESTA simply determines whether you're someone who is, in general, eligible for visa-free travel (which is primarily determined by your country of citizenship -- everything else involved in ESTA is secondary to that). It doesn't grant a visa or guarantee anything about being allowed in. Australia uses an almost-identical system (IIRC the US one is based on Australia's).
        germanier 9y ago
        But what the web page says is exactly what the parent comment complained about. Saying "you are free to travel" and then, without notifying you, deny you boarding is not a nice thing to do (even if it happens for a very valid reason). It just shows the careless attitude of whoever designed that system.
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        You are saying: "But the webpage said this!" I am saying: "I agree with you that the webpage said this. The webpage should not say that, because that is not accurate or useful." In your pursuit of antagonizing someone who agreed with you, you have now devolved into trying to nitpick details of a program you clearly don't actually understand, so I'd suggest you just accept that when I said I agreed with you that the wording was bad I did in fact mean it, and stop now.
  - timv 9y ago
    The whole ESTA application system is horrid. If your approval isn't immediate (mine wasn't) then you have to keep checking back to see if/when it gets approved - they don't email you.
tome 9y ago
I guess a lot of people try to enter the US, some small proportion get rejected, and you hear about some small proportion of that. Overall you end up hearing several stories.
- nthcolumn 9y ago
  I hate to break it to you but take it from someone who has traveled all over the world to all sorts of weird regimes and through some crazy hairy checkpoints: the US has developed a major attitude problem in the past 20 years.
MatthewWilkes 9y ago
It's not just the US, this one last year was big news: https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4 https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4 I suspect there are a few confounding factors. Firstly, lots of non-residents travel to tech conferences in the US. This gives them a wider pool of people to reject. My personal experience is that US-Americans are underrepresented at conferences in other places. They're by no means absent, but it feels off to me. I do think that even controlling for that it happens more in the US than other countries, though. Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US.
- qume 9y ago
  >Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US Also my experience. In a massive country like the US it's easy to get irate about individual cases like this but also important to acknowledge that in general it works pretty well. I know of more cases in other countries of this happening (including to myself) than the US.
  - baby 9y ago
    Now in general they treat people like shit at the border. These are not just some cases. Actually, they treat their own people like shit too, see the security lines at airports during the summer (O'Hare I hate you).
sacheendra 9y ago
I guess its both. Newsworthy people visit the USA more often than other countries due the concentration of a lot of companies and conferences. So, I believe denial of entry happens more often than in other countries. But, there is also the running trend of focusing on bad/silly things happening in the USA.
- akie 9y ago
  To be honest, my experience is that US border checks are very aggressive (like, passive aggression and suspicion is the default attitude). I've seen worse, but my last entrance into the US (in 2012) featured barking sniffer dogs and open distrust – and I'm a white middle class European traveling from a European country. Don't get this much in other places.
  - tome 9y ago
    While we're sharing anecdotes, I flew into JFK several times around 2013-2014 and experienced only quick and friendly border security agents.
    - andreiw 9y ago
      The border agents themselves were friendly enough to put up with my cranky self and the screaming kid after a 10 hour flight. The rest of that airport is a complete disaster, compared to places like Schiphol. This especially concerns the rest of the menially-paid staff that are supposed to help you through the airport.
  - dav43 9y ago
    I would say there is no passivity at all. It is aggressive plain and simple. I’ve gone through a few times in 5 years and it’s getting worse and worse. I won’t be returning.
  - davidbanham 9y ago
    The US border is awful for travellers. I'm Australian, so a very friendly nation, and it sucks every time. Much worse than borders in Europe or Asia. I refuse to travel to the states these days whether for work or pleasure. The fact that it seems to be getting worse rather than better is very worrying.
raverbashing 9y ago
It's a bias (not sure how it's called, maybe a type of "survivor bias") You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here May I also note some (tech people) display an increased level of naiveté in dealing with border people.
- icebraining 9y ago
  You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here Yes, but that bias applies to every country, it doesn't justify the US bias of these reports.
  - raverbashing 9y ago
    Correct, even a small percentage is indicative of an issue
- DamonHD 9y ago
  But you also don't hear from the people who decided not even to try to go to the US, and thus didn't get refused either. That's me since over a decade ago: the US doesn't get my tourist dollars, and gets fewer of my business dollars, as a consequence.
pjc50 9y ago
There is a reporting selection factor: this is happening to "tech people", including white middleclass people from the rest of the West who aren't used to being treated like second-class non-citizens or being victims of a bureaucracy they can't appeal against.
baby 9y ago
> Or is there some kind of reporting bias at play? No it is not, read the comments here to see that many people even on HN are impacted by the US borders in bad ways.

by TekMol 9y ago

kyrra 9y ago

This was at his local airport in Sweden. To quote some tweets: "They denied me entry on ESTA with no explanation. Already at check-in in Sweden. =( or rather instead of check-in" "I only got to the airport locally. My passport was flagged somehow so the airline wouldn't let me check in, called to ask why... So they say" Edit: ESTA is this: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/ So the DHS denied him for some reason.

Taniwha 9y ago
but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved' - you use this as a basis for booking a flight and travelling, if they're going to take it back without telling you (they have your email address) that really sucks, kind of passive aggressive
- the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
  > but when you apply for an ESTA you get told you've been 'approved' FWIW, the last esta before the current one was not immediately approved for me. I did however get a mail after a while that it was approved and i get consistently mailed a month before it expires.
- iamtew 9y ago
  They don't seem to do the check when you apply. Years ago I fat-fingered my passport number, the ESTA went through fine, but I was refused at the airport due to my typo. I had to make a new one on the spot, was no problem, but it seems that they will just approve the ESTA when applying for it, and then later refuse you if they want.
  - koolba 9y ago
    It'd be very funny if all of this boils down to him having a typo entering his info.
  - dx034 9y ago
    They sometimes check. My last two ESTA renewals took 1 day because of some manual checks. Went through in the end. Know others who had the same experience so I guess they are performing some background checks.
  - fnordfnordfnord 9y ago
    So the lesson is apply for ESTA as late as possible?
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  ESTA does not tell you you're "approved" -- it simply tells you whether or not you are in one of the eligible populations for visa-free entry to the US. Nothing in ESTA guarantees you'll be allowed into the US, or even to board your plane.
  - germanier 9y ago
    It literally tells you > Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program. It then goes on to say (but this is the same for visas as well): > This does not guarantee admission to the United States; a Customs and Border protection (CBP) officer at a port of entry will have the final determination.
    - ubernostrum 9y ago
      I'm not disagreeing that the web page says that. But what it says is terrible inaccurate wording. ESTA simply determines whether you're someone who is, in general, eligible for visa-free travel (which is primarily determined by your country of citizenship -- everything else involved in ESTA is secondary to that). It doesn't grant a visa or guarantee anything about being allowed in. Australia uses an almost-identical system (IIRC the US one is based on Australia's).
      - germanier 9y ago
        But what the web page says is exactly what the parent comment complained about. Saying "you are free to travel" and then, without notifying you, deny you boarding is not a nice thing to do (even if it happens for a very valid reason). It just shows the careless attitude of whoever designed that system.
        ubernostrum 9y ago
        You are saying: "But the webpage said this!" I am saying: "I agree with you that the webpage said this. The webpage should not say that, because that is not accurate or useful." In your pursuit of antagonizing someone who agreed with you, you have now devolved into trying to nitpick details of a program you clearly don't actually understand, so I'd suggest you just accept that when I said I agreed with you that the wording was bad I did in fact mean it, and stop now.
- timv 9y ago
  The whole ESTA application system is horrid. If your approval isn't immediate (mine wasn't) then you have to keep checking back to see if/when it gets approved - they don't email you.

tome 9y ago

I guess a lot of people try to enter the US, some small proportion get rejected, and you hear about some small proportion of that. Overall you end up hearing several stories.

nthcolumn 9y ago
I hate to break it to you but take it from someone who has traveled all over the world to all sorts of weird regimes and through some crazy hairy checkpoints: the US has developed a major attitude problem in the past 20 years.

MatthewWilkes 9y ago

It's not just the US, this one last year was big news: https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4 https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4 I suspect there are a few confounding factors. Firstly, lots of non-residents travel to tech conferences in the US. This gives them a wider pool of people to reject. My personal experience is that US-Americans are underrepresented at conferences in other places. They're by no means absent, but it feels off to me. I do think that even controlling for that it happens more in the US than other countries, though. Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US.

qume 9y ago
>Of my colleagues who travel a lot I don't know anyone who's had trouble at a border other than the US Also my experience. In a massive country like the US it's easy to get irate about individual cases like this but also important to acknowledge that in general it works pretty well. I know of more cases in other countries of this happening (including to myself) than the US.
- baby 9y ago
  Now in general they treat people like shit at the border. These are not just some cases. Actually, they treat their own people like shit too, see the security lines at airports during the summer (O'Hare I hate you).

sacheendra 9y ago

I guess its both. Newsworthy people visit the USA more often than other countries due the concentration of a lot of companies and conferences. So, I believe denial of entry happens more often than in other countries. But, there is also the running trend of focusing on bad/silly things happening in the USA.

akie 9y ago
To be honest, my experience is that US border checks are very aggressive (like, passive aggression and suspicion is the default attitude). I've seen worse, but my last entrance into the US (in 2012) featured barking sniffer dogs and open distrust – and I'm a white middle class European traveling from a European country. Don't get this much in other places.
- tome 9y ago
  While we're sharing anecdotes, I flew into JFK several times around 2013-2014 and experienced only quick and friendly border security agents.
  - andreiw 9y ago
    The border agents themselves were friendly enough to put up with my cranky self and the screaming kid after a 10 hour flight. The rest of that airport is a complete disaster, compared to places like Schiphol. This especially concerns the rest of the menially-paid staff that are supposed to help you through the airport.
- dav43 9y ago
  I would say there is no passivity at all. It is aggressive plain and simple. I’ve gone through a few times in 5 years and it’s getting worse and worse. I won’t be returning.
- davidbanham 9y ago
  The US border is awful for travellers. I'm Australian, so a very friendly nation, and it sucks every time. Much worse than borders in Europe or Asia. I refuse to travel to the states these days whether for work or pleasure. The fact that it seems to be getting worse rather than better is very worrying.

raverbashing 9y ago

It's a bias (not sure how it's called, maybe a type of "survivor bias") You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here May I also note some (tech people) display an increased level of naiveté in dealing with border people.

icebraining 9y ago
You don't hear about the thousands admitted without an issue in the US every day. But of course those that aren't admitted show up here Yes, but that bias applies to every country, it doesn't justify the US bias of these reports.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  Correct, even a small percentage is indicative of an issue
DamonHD 9y ago
But you also don't hear from the people who decided not even to try to go to the US, and thus didn't get refused either. That's me since over a decade ago: the US doesn't get my tourist dollars, and gets fewer of my business dollars, as a consequence.

pjc50 9y ago

There is a reporting selection factor: this is happening to "tech people", including white middleclass people from the rest of the West who aren't used to being treated like second-class non-citizens or being victims of a bureaucracy they can't appeal against.

baby 9y ago

> Or is there some kind of reporting bias at play? No it is not, read the comments here to see that many people even on HN are impacted by the US borders in bad ways.