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When did you last switch jobs? I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. Between updating my resume/social networks,

When did you last switch jobs? I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. Between updating my resume/social networks, brushing up on academic CS, finding leads, scheduling interviews and follow-up interviews and managing/negotiating offers, it was absolutely a full-time job. I can't imagine finding a new programming job while still working at the old job.

angryasian 9y ago
Theres no way I would quit my current job before having another job lined up, if I didn't need to. I do agree that looking for a new opportunity is like a full time job, but when you are already employed the necessity is not as great. I can take my time over months rather than try to treat it like a 9 - 5.
ryandrake 9y ago
That seems like an enormous risk. I've in the past spent upwards of 6+ months looking for work, and plenty more people have spent much longer. Given Bay Area expenses, if I quit my income, the first thing I'd have to do is temporarily move somewhere cheaper until I found something. Contrary to all the "shortage of engineers" stories, tech jobs do not, in fact, grow on trees.
vthallam 9y ago
Doesn't work when you are on a visa, unfortunately. But even if you could, I still think you wouldn't need to quit before you interview, best case may be a couple of weeks off for preparing.
mattnewton 9y ago
I think this is a crazy expectation. I last switched jobs while working at Apple last October. Having the BATNA of your current employment is crucial to the negotiation process and I can't imagine forgoing that- if you have no current income that's an insane bargaining handicap. Anyone with experience absolutely is not going to go for "quit your job, and maybe we'll give you a new one after a week, maybe it won't work out and you are boned"
- stephenbez 9y ago
  I had a YC company that wanted me to do a trial week. They wanted me to quit my job when I said I couldn't take off a week of vacation. When I said no, they wanted me to come out Friday through Monday and since the whole company works on the weekend, they would get 4 days to work with me. At that point I said I wasn't interested.
  - supran 9y ago
    That's outrageous. Starting the death march before you even get an offer.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    Wow this is next-level outrageous! Could you share the name of the company so others might avoid them and avoid wasting their time with such nonsense?
    - stephenbez 9y ago
      Since it was in 2014 and I don't know if they still do this, I won't name them. I guess the lesson learned is to ask what the interview process looks like before getting involved. However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me, and tell me they wanted me onsite for a week.
      - bogomipz 9y ago
        >"However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me" This is a huge red flag in my opinion and I would recommend people not agree to this. Why? Because it shows complete disregard for the candidate. "Pass a test and you can speak to an actual human being." Its demeaning. It also shows just how useless many recruiters have become. Part of the job of a recruiter's job and good ones do this, is to get a candidate excited about interviewing with the company and get the preliminary deal breaker questions out of the way to see if it even makes sense to proceed.
kudokatz 9y ago
> When did you last switch jobs? I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. The tone of this implies that lining up a new job without first quitting is outdated and negative. From the other side, quitting before having a new position can look irresponsible. I have never quit a job without another lined up and have done quite nicely, myself. Why ever invest in trashy projects when one can get good jobs quickly and easily?
- dieterrams 9y ago
  I spent a year not working and had no trouble lining up dozens of interviews when I started looking. However, it did take several months before (a) my interview game was up to par, and (b) I found a company I actually wanted to work for.
  - Jach 9y ago
    What did you do for the year off? I've always believed that tech is one of the most generous industries for this sort of "resume gap" of a year+ but if the question comes up I don't think most people would think highly of answers like "sleep" or "video games", even though more socially acceptable answers like "travel" aren't all that different... I wonder how much it varies from tech company to company. Last time I did interviewing I had an older guy ask about my GPA, and a few wondered what I was up to in 2013 when I had a year off my resume (finishing off school but that doesn't answer what the summer was spent doing, which wasn't much of note).
    - dieterrams 9y ago
      Generally I told people that I had done a tiny bit of contract work (true) and had been working on my own project (somewhat true, although it never got past the conceptual stage). There were a couple other things, which I won't elaborate on for anonymity's sake, but they were not programming related at all. Even on the projects, interviewers never really dug deep into them. I suppose sleep and videogames aren't great answers. Taking time off to travel or explore some other interest is almost certainly fine in SV. Ultimately, I think most places are so hard up to find qualified candidates that as long as you pass the interview and don't come off as a total slacker, you're probably fine. But if you're career-minded and applying to a place that has their career tracks worked out (read, not most startups), you probably want to give that impression to your future engineering manager.
supran 9y ago
I've done this for nearly every job in the past. However, since moving to the Bay Area, I would never consider quitting my job just to look for another. As one commenter below said, you put yourself at a disadvantage when you're bargaining for compensation. I can agree that it's pretty difficult to find a new job while still working. However, most companies let you work from home nowadays. You can just interview during that time. Is it ethical? Who cares? It's business; the nature of the beast.
- pogaxvr 9y ago
  However, most companies let you work from home nowadays. I don't think that's even slightly true.
richardknop 9y ago
I have found a new programming job while still working full time at an old job about 5-6 times now. I almost never had any time off between jobs.
YorickPeterse 9y ago
> I can't imagine finding a new programming job while still working at the old job. Imagine having things such as: a family, a car, a mortgage, bills, etc. Giving up a job (therefore your income) just to find another job is not an option for many.
- padobson 9y ago
  I have all those things, two cars in fact! At the time I was living in north east Ohio, where cost of living is fairly low. It would certainly be harder in high cost of living areas.
johan_larson 9y ago
Experiences differ, I guess. I have twice looked for a job while I didn't have one, and I found it to be way, way less than a full-time activity. Updating my resume, posting it to a handful of job sites, monitoring a handful of job sites for new job postings, handling recruiter calls and screenings, just didn't take all that much time. It was maybe a couple of hours per day.
bogomipz 9y ago
>"Between updating my resume/social networks, brushing up on academic CS, finding leads, scheduling interviews and follow-up interviews and managing/negotiating offers, it was absolutely a full-time job." Can you break down how much time you spent on each of those tasks that they took up the equivalent of an entire 8 or 9 hour work day 5 days a week? I think you might be in the minority with your outlook. Most people opt to keep their paycheck and health insurance and vacation time until they find something new. Not least those with families. Also its much easier to negotiate a higher salary using your existing salary as a starting point.
- keyboardhitter 9y ago
  IMO, it's not the literal time taken, but the mental bandwidth needed to do these things (and do them well) that can feel "full time" to each their own of course
- padobson 9y ago
  Sure, here's an approximate breakdown: Morning: 1-2 hours: Study a chapter of CLRS Algos book 1-2 hours: HackerRank 1-2 hours: Studying trivia of technology X Afternoon was all about sales - updating social networks, filling out applications, talking to recruiters on the phone, scheduling interviews, etc. I probably applied to about 250-300 companies. I made tweaks as I went - I found that recruiters preferred to talk in the morning, so I eventually inverted the whole thing. I started to sniff out which companies were serious about hiring and which perpetually advertise for talent This is just a rough framework. Sometimes I'd spend the whole morning on CLRS, or a tricky Hacker Rank problem, other times I'd spend the whole day interviewing. Before I spoke with anyone at a company, I always did research on them, the company, the company's market, and the technologies they were interviewing for.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    >" I started to sniff out which companies were serious about hiring and which perpetually advertise for talent" Would you be able to share how you sniffed them out or what techniques worked for you? In my opinion this is one of the largest time sinks. Companies that aren't really hiring. I see this repeatedly on the HN "Who's Hiring" thread. Companies just perpetually advertise the same roles and very often these are the same companies who seem to have no problem wasting other's people time with flakey recruiters or ghosting or just never responding to candidates. I would love to know if there is a commonality you found? I also wish there were a better way to share experiences regarding these perpetual time wasters, something akin to hosts respond percentage on AirBnB. And I personally don't consider Glassdoor to be a very good experience or trustworthy outlet. We often hear about the shortage of talent. And while I don't doubt there is an amount of shortage, I am often left wondering what percentage of this are companies completely broken hiring process. I also wonder whether these companies are even aware of how broken their process and their recruiters are.
madeofpalk 9y ago
> I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. From my experience of hiring people and looking for a job myself, this is the exception.
cakedoggie 9y ago
> Between updating my resume/social networks, brushing up on academic CS, finding leads, scheduling interviews and follow-up interviews and managing/negotiating offers, it was absolutely a full-time job. That is ridiculous, you must have incredibly bad time management skills. Or do you actually think this is very common?
- padobson 9y ago
  When I first got out of college in '08, it didn't take this kind of effort to get hired. At my previous job, it was also fairly easy - but hiring has changed quite a bit in the last 3-5 years. I had a company demand I do two phone interviews, plus an onsite, 2 time zones away, for a $50/hr, temporary contract with no health insurance. Obviously, I politely declined to continue, but companies wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't working on some candidates.

angryasian 9y ago

Theres no way I would quit my current job before having another job lined up, if I didn't need to. I do agree that looking for a new opportunity is like a full time job, but when you are already employed the necessity is not as great. I can take my time over months rather than try to treat it like a 9 - 5.

ryandrake 9y ago

That seems like an enormous risk. I've in the past spent upwards of 6+ months looking for work, and plenty more people have spent much longer. Given Bay Area expenses, if I quit my income, the first thing I'd have to do is temporarily move somewhere cheaper until I found something. Contrary to all the "shortage of engineers" stories, tech jobs do not, in fact, grow on trees.

vthallam 9y ago

Doesn't work when you are on a visa, unfortunately. But even if you could, I still think you wouldn't need to quit before you interview, best case may be a couple of weeks off for preparing.

mattnewton 9y ago

I think this is a crazy expectation. I last switched jobs while working at Apple last October. Having the BATNA of your current employment is crucial to the negotiation process and I can't imagine forgoing that- if you have no current income that's an insane bargaining handicap. Anyone with experience absolutely is not going to go for "quit your job, and maybe we'll give you a new one after a week, maybe it won't work out and you are boned"

stephenbez 9y ago
I had a YC company that wanted me to do a trial week. They wanted me to quit my job when I said I couldn't take off a week of vacation. When I said no, they wanted me to come out Friday through Monday and since the whole company works on the weekend, they would get 4 days to work with me. At that point I said I wasn't interested.
- supran 9y ago
  That's outrageous. Starting the death march before you even get an offer.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  Wow this is next-level outrageous! Could you share the name of the company so others might avoid them and avoid wasting their time with such nonsense?
  - stephenbez 9y ago
    Since it was in 2014 and I don't know if they still do this, I won't name them. I guess the lesson learned is to ask what the interview process looks like before getting involved. However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me, and tell me they wanted me onsite for a week.
    - bogomipz 9y ago
      >"However for this company, I applied online, they sent me a InterviewStreet/HackerRank coding test, and only after I passed that did a recruiter call me" This is a huge red flag in my opinion and I would recommend people not agree to this. Why? Because it shows complete disregard for the candidate. "Pass a test and you can speak to an actual human being." Its demeaning. It also shows just how useless many recruiters have become. Part of the job of a recruiter's job and good ones do this, is to get a candidate excited about interviewing with the company and get the preliminary deal breaker questions out of the way to see if it even makes sense to proceed.

kudokatz 9y ago

> When did you last switch jobs? I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. The tone of this implies that lining up a new job without first quitting is outdated and negative. From the other side, quitting before having a new position can look irresponsible. I have never quit a job without another lined up and have done quite nicely, myself. Why ever invest in trashy projects when one can get good jobs quickly and easily?

dieterrams 9y ago
I spent a year not working and had no trouble lining up dozens of interviews when I started looking. However, it did take several months before (a) my interview game was up to par, and (b) I found a company I actually wanted to work for.
- Jach 9y ago
  What did you do for the year off? I've always believed that tech is one of the most generous industries for this sort of "resume gap" of a year+ but if the question comes up I don't think most people would think highly of answers like "sleep" or "video games", even though more socially acceptable answers like "travel" aren't all that different... I wonder how much it varies from tech company to company. Last time I did interviewing I had an older guy ask about my GPA, and a few wondered what I was up to in 2013 when I had a year off my resume (finishing off school but that doesn't answer what the summer was spent doing, which wasn't much of note).
  - dieterrams 9y ago
    Generally I told people that I had done a tiny bit of contract work (true) and had been working on my own project (somewhat true, although it never got past the conceptual stage). There were a couple other things, which I won't elaborate on for anonymity's sake, but they were not programming related at all. Even on the projects, interviewers never really dug deep into them. I suppose sleep and videogames aren't great answers. Taking time off to travel or explore some other interest is almost certainly fine in SV. Ultimately, I think most places are so hard up to find qualified candidates that as long as you pass the interview and don't come off as a total slacker, you're probably fine. But if you're career-minded and applying to a place that has their career tracks worked out (read, not most startups), you probably want to give that impression to your future engineering manager.

supran 9y ago

I've done this for nearly every job in the past. However, since moving to the Bay Area, I would never consider quitting my job just to look for another. As one commenter below said, you put yourself at a disadvantage when you're bargaining for compensation. I can agree that it's pretty difficult to find a new job while still working. However, most companies let you work from home nowadays. You can just interview during that time. Is it ethical? Who cares? It's business; the nature of the beast.

pogaxvr 9y ago
However, most companies let you work from home nowadays. I don't think that's even slightly true.

richardknop 9y ago

I have found a new programming job while still working full time at an old job about 5-6 times now. I almost never had any time off between jobs.

YorickPeterse 9y ago

> I can't imagine finding a new programming job while still working at the old job. Imagine having things such as: a family, a car, a mortgage, bills, etc. Giving up a job (therefore your income) just to find another job is not an option for many.

padobson 9y ago
I have all those things, two cars in fact! At the time I was living in north east Ohio, where cost of living is fairly low. It would certainly be harder in high cost of living areas.

johan_larson 9y ago

Experiences differ, I guess. I have twice looked for a job while I didn't have one, and I found it to be way, way less than a full-time activity. Updating my resume, posting it to a handful of job sites, monitoring a handful of job sites for new job postings, handling recruiter calls and screenings, just didn't take all that much time. It was maybe a couple of hours per day.

bogomipz 9y ago

>"Between updating my resume/social networks, brushing up on academic CS, finding leads, scheduling interviews and follow-up interviews and managing/negotiating offers, it was absolutely a full-time job." Can you break down how much time you spent on each of those tasks that they took up the equivalent of an entire 8 or 9 hour work day 5 days a week? I think you might be in the minority with your outlook. Most people opt to keep their paycheck and health insurance and vacation time until they find something new. Not least those with families. Also its much easier to negotiate a higher salary using your existing salary as a starting point.

keyboardhitter 9y ago
IMO, it's not the literal time taken, but the mental bandwidth needed to do these things (and do them well) that can feel "full time" to each their own of course
padobson 9y ago
Sure, here's an approximate breakdown: Morning: 1-2 hours: Study a chapter of CLRS Algos book 1-2 hours: HackerRank 1-2 hours: Studying trivia of technology X Afternoon was all about sales - updating social networks, filling out applications, talking to recruiters on the phone, scheduling interviews, etc. I probably applied to about 250-300 companies. I made tweaks as I went - I found that recruiters preferred to talk in the morning, so I eventually inverted the whole thing. I started to sniff out which companies were serious about hiring and which perpetually advertise for talent This is just a rough framework. Sometimes I'd spend the whole morning on CLRS, or a tricky Hacker Rank problem, other times I'd spend the whole day interviewing. Before I spoke with anyone at a company, I always did research on them, the company, the company's market, and the technologies they were interviewing for.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >" I started to sniff out which companies were serious about hiring and which perpetually advertise for talent" Would you be able to share how you sniffed them out or what techniques worked for you? In my opinion this is one of the largest time sinks. Companies that aren't really hiring. I see this repeatedly on the HN "Who's Hiring" thread. Companies just perpetually advertise the same roles and very often these are the same companies who seem to have no problem wasting other's people time with flakey recruiters or ghosting or just never responding to candidates. I would love to know if there is a commonality you found? I also wish there were a better way to share experiences regarding these perpetual time wasters, something akin to hosts respond percentage on AirBnB. And I personally don't consider Glassdoor to be a very good experience or trustworthy outlet. We often hear about the shortage of talent. And while I don't doubt there is an amount of shortage, I am often left wondering what percentage of this are companies completely broken hiring process. I also wonder whether these companies are even aware of how broken their process and their recruiters are.

madeofpalk 9y ago

> I recently went through a round of employment where I quit my job at the beginning. From my experience of hiring people and looking for a job myself, this is the exception.

cakedoggie 9y ago

> Between updating my resume/social networks, brushing up on academic CS, finding leads, scheduling interviews and follow-up interviews and managing/negotiating offers, it was absolutely a full-time job. That is ridiculous, you must have incredibly bad time management skills. Or do you actually think this is very common?

padobson 9y ago
When I first got out of college in '08, it didn't take this kind of effort to get hired. At my previous job, it was also fairly easy - but hiring has changed quite a bit in the last 3-5 years. I had a company demand I do two phone interviews, plus an onsite, 2 time zones away, for a $50/hr, temporary contract with no health insurance. Obviously, I politely declined to continue, but companies wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't working on some candidates.