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As I said earlier. "Secondly I don't mean to criticize Java. By calling it a toy language, I was simply referring to the fact that Java tends to make writing b

As I said earlier. "Secondly I don't mean to criticize Java. By calling it a toy language, I was simply referring to the fact that Java tends to make writing bad code difficult, and in doing this takes away some of the flexibility and power that you tend to associate with other languages." Judging from the general reaction it seems I should not have used the term "toy language". My apologies if I ended up implying that Java has little practical use.

cabalamat 16y ago
> Java tends to make writing bad code difficult I've known people who could write bad code in Java with the utmost ease! It'd probably be more accurate to say that Java deliberately limits its expressiveness, in order to make it harder for people to shoot themselves in the foot, and to make it easier for one programmer to understand what another has written.
- thedigitalengel 16y ago
  > It'd probably be more accurate to say that Java deliberately limits its expressiveness, in order to make it harder for people to shoot themselves in the foot, and to make it easier for one programmer to understand what another has written. That is exactly what I meant. Bad programmers exist. They will write bad code, no matter what language they're made to use.
strlen 16y ago
> Java tends to make writing bad code difficult If this were actually the case, it would be a bonus point for Java. It isn't, however. Nor is it the case for Python, Ruby or even BSDM languages like Ada. How many times have you come (when searching for a used car or trying to reserve a table at a restaurant) to a slow, ugly, non-functional URL that creates an error message if you press the wrong button at the wrong time? Usually those URL ended in ".jsp", ".asp[x]" or ".cgi" or ".php". I'd argue, that the largest amount of bad code that exists is in Cobol, followed by Java, C# and then C/C+, PHP and various BASIC dialects. That has nothing to do with how good those languages are but rather with the facts that most code out there: a) is created by IT departments or outsourcing firms staffed by mediocre or completely disinterested programmers (I've never been in such an environment, but my hair stands up every time I read horror stories on dailywtf or on progit) b) shouldn't have been created in the first place (there are commercial and open source packages that do this) if it weren't for the NIH symptoms. There are tons of restaurants with their own order/registration forms despite the fact that OpenTable is widely known and available. There are tons of non-technology companies writing their own accounting systems even though there's a multi-billion/year industry around that type of software (that employs programmers who understand not just J2EE but accounting itself as well). c) is forced upon its users (due to the sunken costs fallacy) and thus isn't exposed to market forces d) is written in those languages as they're most common and are either easy to learn (PHP, BASICs) or are widely taught in colleges or trade schools (Java, C#, C++) Truth is, there is no magic language bullet. Some languages are more expressive, more pleasant to program in. Some produce faster code. Others are more scalable in the sense of making it possible to write whole systems in one language. Some are more "safe" in the sense of being less prone to garden variety security attacks, less likely to crash the entire machine when there's a bug (at the cost of imposing restrictive abstractions on the programmer). No language, however, is a substitute for a team of competent and interested developers solving a relevant problem.

cabalamat 16y ago

> Java tends to make writing bad code difficult I've known people who could write bad code in Java with the utmost ease! It'd probably be more accurate to say that Java deliberately limits its expressiveness, in order to make it harder for people to shoot themselves in the foot, and to make it easier for one programmer to understand what another has written.

thedigitalengel 16y ago
> It'd probably be more accurate to say that Java deliberately limits its expressiveness, in order to make it harder for people to shoot themselves in the foot, and to make it easier for one programmer to understand what another has written. That is exactly what I meant. Bad programmers exist. They will write bad code, no matter what language they're made to use.

strlen 16y ago

> Java tends to make writing bad code difficult If this were actually the case, it would be a bonus point for Java. It isn't, however. Nor is it the case for Python, Ruby or even BSDM languages like Ada. How many times have you come (when searching for a used car or trying to reserve a table at a restaurant) to a slow, ugly, non-functional URL that creates an error message if you press the wrong button at the wrong time? Usually those URL ended in ".jsp", ".asp[x]" or ".cgi" or ".php". I'd argue, that the largest amount of bad code that exists is in Cobol, followed by Java, C# and then C/C+, PHP and various BASIC dialects. That has nothing to do with how good those languages are but rather with the facts that most code out there: a) is created by IT departments or outsourcing firms staffed by mediocre or completely disinterested programmers (I've never been in such an environment, but my hair stands up every time I read horror stories on dailywtf or on progit) b) shouldn't have been created in the first place (there are commercial and open source packages that do this) if it weren't for the NIH symptoms. There are tons of restaurants with their own order/registration forms despite the fact that OpenTable is widely known and available. There are tons of non-technology companies writing their own accounting systems even though there's a multi-billion/year industry around that type of software (that employs programmers who understand not just J2EE but accounting itself as well). c) is forced upon its users (due to the sunken costs fallacy) and thus isn't exposed to market forces d) is written in those languages as they're most common and are either easy to learn (PHP, BASICs) or are widely taught in colleges or trade schools (Java, C#, C++) Truth is, there is no magic language bullet. Some languages are more expressive, more pleasant to program in. Some produce faster code. Others are more scalable in the sense of making it possible to write whole systems in one language. Some are more "safe" in the sense of being less prone to garden variety security attacks, less likely to crash the entire machine when there's a bug (at the cost of imposing restrictive abstractions on the programmer). No language, however, is a substitute for a team of competent and interested developers solving a relevant problem.