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"Avoid certification." So how do you get through HR wall? Padding CV with keywords is a common way to get an interview. I'm an embedded system engineer looking

by kbart 9y ago

"Avoid certification." So how do you get through HR wall? Padding CV with keywords is a common way to get an interview. I'm an embedded system engineer looking to move closer to IT security, so how do I get there without experience and certifications as virtually all jobs require one, another or both (except junior positions, but I'm too old to start from the very bottom)? I do learn a lot on my spare time, but you still need to get a chance to demonstrate your skills, which is impossible if your CV is discarded as "requirements are not met" (a.k.a not enough keywords on CV match the ones in job description).

wepple 9y ago
HR wall? You're applying at the wrong places. If a company needs to see letters on your CV, it's because they have no idea what/who they want. A decent company will have your future colleagues heavily involved in the hiring process, and they'll know how to chat to you about security.
- nulldev 9y ago
  > HR wall? You're applying at the wrong places This elitism is not helpful. There are finite employers in the world, and many of them do screen based on keywords. That's reality. Applicants who are entering the job market might not always have the luxury of disregarding n% (where n most likely > 75) of their potential employers based on stuff like "oh well any real company wouldn't screen my resume..."
  - wepple 9y ago
    The security industry is remarkably small. If you're going to spray your CV and hope for the best, sure, having as many certs as possible will get you past the first interview. But chances are if someone is browsing HN they're at least genuinely engaged enough to do better than that. You're advocating for people to shoot for average, I'm suggesting to not settle.
    - nulldev 9y ago
      > You're advocating for people to shoot for average, I'm suggesting to not settle. From my perspective, I'm advocating that people don't inadvertently shoot themselves in the foot. They might not yet be qualified to work at Matasano or [insert top tier security shop here] : not everyone is. Assuming someone isn't (yet) qualified to work with their dream employer, what do you suggest they do? "Don't settle" in that scenario sounds a lot like "be unemployed". I'm straight up saying it's better to build up skills at a job - even if that job isn't their endgame.
      - Bartweiss 9y ago
        I'm generally on board with this point - encouraging everyone to shoot for the top 10% inherently means letting down 90% of people. But I think in this case, the issue might be that rather than one job being the first step to the other, we're talking about two totally distinct tracks. If a company is sufficiently shoddy and certification-happy, it's possible that they don't even provide meaningful experience for someone seeking the top-tier options. You might be better served by hardening systems at some general software job than getting an entry-level security job and blindly throwing Nessus at client's systems.
- kbart 9y ago
  "A decent company will have your future colleagues heavily involved in the hiring process" Of course, but you still have to get to them first as no sane company makes their engineers to do 1st round CV screening (especially for publicly announced positions where tens or hundreds of CVs are applied). From my personal experience, technical interview with an engineer is usually only on 2nd/3rd round, so we are back to square 1. Yes, I know the best positions are filled through networking and recommendations, but that's not an option when you live outside of tech bubbles.

by kbart 9y ago

wepple 9y ago

HR wall? You're applying at the wrong places. If a company needs to see letters on your CV, it's because they have no idea what/who they want. A decent company will have your future colleagues heavily involved in the hiring process, and they'll know how to chat to you about security.

nulldev 9y ago
> HR wall? You're applying at the wrong places This elitism is not helpful. There are finite employers in the world, and many of them do screen based on keywords. That's reality. Applicants who are entering the job market might not always have the luxury of disregarding n% (where n most likely > 75) of their potential employers based on stuff like "oh well any real company wouldn't screen my resume..."
- wepple 9y ago
  The security industry is remarkably small. If you're going to spray your CV and hope for the best, sure, having as many certs as possible will get you past the first interview. But chances are if someone is browsing HN they're at least genuinely engaged enough to do better than that. You're advocating for people to shoot for average, I'm suggesting to not settle.
  - nulldev 9y ago
    > You're advocating for people to shoot for average, I'm suggesting to not settle. From my perspective, I'm advocating that people don't inadvertently shoot themselves in the foot. They might not yet be qualified to work at Matasano or [insert top tier security shop here] : not everyone is. Assuming someone isn't (yet) qualified to work with their dream employer, what do you suggest they do? "Don't settle" in that scenario sounds a lot like "be unemployed". I'm straight up saying it's better to build up skills at a job - even if that job isn't their endgame.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      I'm generally on board with this point - encouraging everyone to shoot for the top 10% inherently means letting down 90% of people. But I think in this case, the issue might be that rather than one job being the first step to the other, we're talking about two totally distinct tracks. If a company is sufficiently shoddy and certification-happy, it's possible that they don't even provide meaningful experience for someone seeking the top-tier options. You might be better served by hardening systems at some general software job than getting an entry-level security job and blindly throwing Nessus at client's systems.
kbart 9y ago
"A decent company will have your future colleagues heavily involved in the hiring process" Of course, but you still have to get to them first as no sane company makes their engineers to do 1st round CV screening (especially for publicly announced positions where tens or hundreds of CVs are applied). From my personal experience, technical interview with an engineer is usually only on 2nd/3rd round, so we are back to square 1. Yes, I know the best positions are filled through networking and recommendations, but that's not an option when you live outside of tech bubbles.