8 ms·

Russia threatens to block Telegram

126 points by tomfloyer 9y ago

r721 9y ago
>Fri Jun 23, 2017 | 5:00pm EDT Here is a newer article (there were a couple of developments on weekend): https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/durov-criticizes-roskomnadzor-for-incompetence/ https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/durov-criticizes-ros...
- vsviridov 9y ago
  Ironically this website does not open from Russia (had to use a VPN to access it). Same agency's shills in Russian Duma (parliament) are planning another law banning VPN and Anonymizer services. Censorship is coming down hard, it seems...
  - an27 9y ago
    Shadowsocks has you covered :)
  - qb45 9y ago
    Also: https://www.rt.com/politics/389683-russian-public-supports-measures-to/ https://www.rt.com/politics/389683-russian-public-supports-m... Over 40 percent of Russians support the verification of internet users on social networks or other internet platforms, as proposed in a bill drafted by a well-known pro-Orthodox lawmaker. I wonder if it's real or just propaganda? FWIW, In May, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed the strategy for the development of the Russian information community between 2017 and 2030. This document states that in order to successfully develop the internet and the communications infrastructure as a whole, the country needs working mechanisms that would introduce a system of trust between users, and eliminate anonymity and the lack of responsibility that it causes.
    - vsviridov 9y ago
      Of course Russia Today is going to toe the Party line... Most people here call this "Crazy Printer", as in a machine that produces copious amounts of insane legislation. Usually people co-sponsoring this kind of legislation have ties to various corporations or government entities. Most of those things are fast-tracked without any kind of input from the populace.
    - petre 9y ago
      > drafted by a well-known pro-Orthodox lawmaker Man, this is starting to look like Sugar Kremlin by Vladimir Sorokin.
  - konart 9y ago
    Ironically I can acceess the website from my office machine in one of the state owen companies.
raverbashing 9y ago
For the amount of haters telegram had when they launched for their purported security failures, it's funny that people are looking to block it instead of silently explore its flaws
- Dolores12 9y ago
  You can't exploit something that doesn't exist, hence they block it.
- legulere 9y ago
  Or it is just a charade to make it look like Telegram is not controlled by the kreml
  - nikcub 9y ago
    Why would someone who has stood up to the Russian government multiple times, had a company taken away from him already for not being compliant and is now living in exile hand control of Telegram to that same government?
    - brazzledazzle 9y ago
      That's the cover story you see.
    - jsjsjsjsjsjs 9y ago
      Why would such someone would wave flag of security making it the biggest selling point and then go with questionable practices?
      - nikcub 9y ago
        Telegram being secure or not is a separate question. Secure messaging is hard, most people when producing secure messaging will produce poor secure messaging - it doesn't mean they've been compromised by a government.
rodionos 9y ago
There is no such agency "Russian Federal Service". You have "Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications" which is too verbose to refer in the article. I think a generic name such as "Russian Communications Watchdog" is better fit.
- andai 9y ago
  Roskomnadzor Ros - Russian kom - communications nadzor - supervision/surveillance
mtve 9y ago
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."
- _jal 9y ago
  Exactly. This is framing, with a side of negotiation.
qznc 9y ago
"if the app is banned in Russia then the government officials will entrust their communications to other countries' messengers" Nice counter :)
- zanny 9y ago
  They could just use Matrix / Riot, since they are both fully open source and auditable on client and server. Hell, I'd like the Russian gov't to start using Riot. Would definitely give them that security audit they need for trustability on their olm. Maybe you shouldn't trust a Russian state audit, but it just takes large users to motivate third parties to start auditing it.
  - ivan_gammel 9y ago
    You don't get it. They do not need secure messengers. They want mass surveillance. For secure communications within the government networks there exist other means.
- Grue3 9y ago
  No problem, they'll just ban all the other messengers. Line and KakaoTalk are already banned. There's nothing a dictatorship hates more than communications that cannot be eavesdropped on.
  - garrybelka 9y ago
    The perpetrators of the recent terrorist attack in Saint Petersburg Metro were using Telegram.
    - ivan_gammel 9y ago
      They also shopped in local stores. I don't think it's the reason to close them.
    - Grue3 9y ago
      Good thing they weren't using whatever app Snowden's using (Signal?), that would've been awkward.
zzzcpan 9y ago
So, I'm guessing Telegram is going to circumvent it in the next release. It's too popular in Russia to simply leave it at that. Signal showed how to do it.
- aaomidi 9y ago
  They'd need to move their servers to google cloud platform. And then they'd still be blockable if Russia decides to block Google entirely.
  - zzzcpan 9y ago
    Google is officially whitelisted in Russia since the incident with accidental ban.
    - aaomidi 9y ago
      In that case it is definitely possible for them to circumvent the ban. If that happens, Russia would have no way of blocking the app other than DNS blocking which can be simply mitigated against as well.
EGreg 9y ago
Can I ask how can a service be blocked in a country? Is it because it has centralized servers? What if it was open source and could be hosted on any website? Then they would have to detect signatures of the protocol and block that, right? At what level, the national level? But the server would be local. So what does it mean when they say they block Tor for instance? How can you block something that is run on many domains and servers inside your country?
- activis 9y ago
  1. Telegram IS centralized. 2. They collect all IPs and domains and ban them on provider level. There is a law which forces internet providers to sync the list of banned resources and prohibit access to them. Basically they ban hundreds of thousands resources already. Adding few thousands of nodes may take some time, but: 1. It is possible to do for sure within months 2. When you ban 20-30% of decentralized system it looses 20-30% of users which makes it not that attractive compared to allowed alternatives which are controlled by the government (like vk.com)
  - EGreg 9y ago
    What about if the decentralized system uses a DHT and contebt addressable protocol like IPFS? Banning 20% won't do much to it.
betaby 9y ago
Unfortunately looks like P2P messengers are not available/not existent nowadays. Especially on mobile. All we have phone tied centralized apps.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Basic thing is that these messengers do not have persistent connections. They instead register with a notification service that then wakes up the relevant app when a new message comes in. This is why the likes of MSN Messenger didn't survive the transition to mobile, because they were built around persistent connections.
- voice_of_reason 9y ago
  Is something wrong with tox? It is a p2p messenger that works on smartphones.
  - betaby 9y ago
    Don't know. Never heard about it till today. Looks like this https://itunes.apple.com/app/apple-store/id933117605?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/app/apple-store/id933117605?mt=8 is the only IOS implementation
  - veeti 9y ago
    Homebrew crypto written by 4chan. No offline messages. Drains a gigabyte of data and battery overnight thanks to P2P.
    - shakna 9y ago
      > Homebrew crypto written by 4chan. Where did you get that from? Tox uses libsodium. [0] [0] https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore/blob/master/docs/updates/Crypto.md https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore/blob/master/docs/updat...
      - veeti 9y ago
        There is more to building a secure end-to-end messaging protocol than dropping in libsodium and calling it a day. See issues like https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426 https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426.

126 points by tomfloyer 9y ago

r721 9y ago

>Fri Jun 23, 2017 | 5:00pm EDT Here is a newer article (there were a couple of developments on weekend): https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/durov-criticizes-roskomnadzor-for-incompetence/ https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/durov-criticizes-ros...

vsviridov 9y ago
Ironically this website does not open from Russia (had to use a VPN to access it). Same agency's shills in Russian Duma (parliament) are planning another law banning VPN and Anonymizer services. Censorship is coming down hard, it seems...
- an27 9y ago
  Shadowsocks has you covered :)
- qb45 9y ago
  Also: https://www.rt.com/politics/389683-russian-public-supports-measures-to/ https://www.rt.com/politics/389683-russian-public-supports-m... Over 40 percent of Russians support the verification of internet users on social networks or other internet platforms, as proposed in a bill drafted by a well-known pro-Orthodox lawmaker. I wonder if it's real or just propaganda? FWIW, In May, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed the strategy for the development of the Russian information community between 2017 and 2030. This document states that in order to successfully develop the internet and the communications infrastructure as a whole, the country needs working mechanisms that would introduce a system of trust between users, and eliminate anonymity and the lack of responsibility that it causes.
  - vsviridov 9y ago
    Of course Russia Today is going to toe the Party line... Most people here call this "Crazy Printer", as in a machine that produces copious amounts of insane legislation. Usually people co-sponsoring this kind of legislation have ties to various corporations or government entities. Most of those things are fast-tracked without any kind of input from the populace.
  - petre 9y ago
    > drafted by a well-known pro-Orthodox lawmaker Man, this is starting to look like Sugar Kremlin by Vladimir Sorokin.
- konart 9y ago
  Ironically I can acceess the website from my office machine in one of the state owen companies.

raverbashing 9y ago

For the amount of haters telegram had when they launched for their purported security failures, it's funny that people are looking to block it instead of silently explore its flaws

Dolores12 9y ago
You can't exploit something that doesn't exist, hence they block it.
legulere 9y ago
Or it is just a charade to make it look like Telegram is not controlled by the kreml
- nikcub 9y ago
  Why would someone who has stood up to the Russian government multiple times, had a company taken away from him already for not being compliant and is now living in exile hand control of Telegram to that same government?
  - brazzledazzle 9y ago
    That's the cover story you see.
  - jsjsjsjsjsjs 9y ago
    Why would such someone would wave flag of security making it the biggest selling point and then go with questionable practices?
    - nikcub 9y ago
      Telegram being secure or not is a separate question. Secure messaging is hard, most people when producing secure messaging will produce poor secure messaging - it doesn't mean they've been compromised by a government.

rodionos 9y ago

There is no such agency "Russian Federal Service". You have "Russian Federal Service for Supervision in the Sphere of Telecom, Information Technologies and Mass Communications" which is too verbose to refer in the article. I think a generic name such as "Russian Communications Watchdog" is better fit.

andai 9y ago
Roskomnadzor Ros - Russian kom - communications nadzor - supervision/surveillance

mtve 9y ago

"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

_jal 9y ago
Exactly. This is framing, with a side of negotiation.

qznc 9y ago

"if the app is banned in Russia then the government officials will entrust their communications to other countries' messengers" Nice counter :)

zanny 9y ago
They could just use Matrix / Riot, since they are both fully open source and auditable on client and server. Hell, I'd like the Russian gov't to start using Riot. Would definitely give them that security audit they need for trustability on their olm. Maybe you shouldn't trust a Russian state audit, but it just takes large users to motivate third parties to start auditing it.
- ivan_gammel 9y ago
  You don't get it. They do not need secure messengers. They want mass surveillance. For secure communications within the government networks there exist other means.
Grue3 9y ago
No problem, they'll just ban all the other messengers. Line and KakaoTalk are already banned. There's nothing a dictatorship hates more than communications that cannot be eavesdropped on.
- garrybelka 9y ago
  The perpetrators of the recent terrorist attack in Saint Petersburg Metro were using Telegram.
  - ivan_gammel 9y ago
    They also shopped in local stores. I don't think it's the reason to close them.
  - Grue3 9y ago
    Good thing they weren't using whatever app Snowden's using (Signal?), that would've been awkward.

zzzcpan 9y ago

So, I'm guessing Telegram is going to circumvent it in the next release. It's too popular in Russia to simply leave it at that. Signal showed how to do it.

aaomidi 9y ago
They'd need to move their servers to google cloud platform. And then they'd still be blockable if Russia decides to block Google entirely.
- zzzcpan 9y ago
  Google is officially whitelisted in Russia since the incident with accidental ban.
  - aaomidi 9y ago
    In that case it is definitely possible for them to circumvent the ban. If that happens, Russia would have no way of blocking the app other than DNS blocking which can be simply mitigated against as well.

EGreg 9y ago

Can I ask how can a service be blocked in a country? Is it because it has centralized servers? What if it was open source and could be hosted on any website? Then they would have to detect signatures of the protocol and block that, right? At what level, the national level? But the server would be local. So what does it mean when they say they block Tor for instance? How can you block something that is run on many domains and servers inside your country?

activis 9y ago
1. Telegram IS centralized. 2. They collect all IPs and domains and ban them on provider level. There is a law which forces internet providers to sync the list of banned resources and prohibit access to them. Basically they ban hundreds of thousands resources already. Adding few thousands of nodes may take some time, but: 1. It is possible to do for sure within months 2. When you ban 20-30% of decentralized system it looses 20-30% of users which makes it not that attractive compared to allowed alternatives which are controlled by the government (like vk.com)
- EGreg 9y ago
  What about if the decentralized system uses a DHT and contebt addressable protocol like IPFS? Banning 20% won't do much to it.

betaby 9y ago

Unfortunately looks like P2P messengers are not available/not existent nowadays. Especially on mobile. All we have phone tied centralized apps.

digi_owl 9y ago
Basic thing is that these messengers do not have persistent connections. They instead register with a notification service that then wakes up the relevant app when a new message comes in. This is why the likes of MSN Messenger didn't survive the transition to mobile, because they were built around persistent connections.
voice_of_reason 9y ago
Is something wrong with tox? It is a p2p messenger that works on smartphones.
- betaby 9y ago
  Don't know. Never heard about it till today. Looks like this https://itunes.apple.com/app/apple-store/id933117605?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/app/apple-store/id933117605?mt=8 is the only IOS implementation
- veeti 9y ago
  Homebrew crypto written by 4chan. No offline messages. Drains a gigabyte of data and battery overnight thanks to P2P.
  - shakna 9y ago
    > Homebrew crypto written by 4chan. Where did you get that from? Tox uses libsodium. [0] [0] https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore/blob/master/docs/updates/Crypto.md https://github.com/irungentoo/toxcore/blob/master/docs/updat...
    - veeti 9y ago
      There is more to building a secure end-to-end messaging protocol than dropping in libsodium and calling it a day. See issues like https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426 https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426.