4 ms·

> Well, the choice was basically, > * Become a member of the Nazi Party > * Death No it wasn't. This is what Nazi's say to excuse their decisions and behavior.

by nikcub 9y ago

> Well, the choice was basically, > * Become a member of the Nazi Party > * Death No it wasn't. This is what Nazi's say to excuse their decisions and behavior. There were millions of people in Germany in both industry and the military who were not Nazi's and survived just fine. Note that unlike Von Braun many other Germany scientists and weapon designers were not members of the Nazi party (let alone enthusiastic members) Becoming a Nazi and joining the party is what a person consciously did either because they believed in the ideology or they wanted to collaborate to further their careers. Van Braun being washed of his Nazi part is a conscious part of a US government propaganda campaign as Von Braun having safe haven in the USA in the 1950s was very controversial at the time. It's as simple as the USA overlooking his Nazi past and excusing it (and actively covering it up) because the cold war necessitated it. edit: forgot to mention, Von Braun wasn't just a member of the Nazi party - he was a member of the SS - there is zero feasible explanation for becoming an SS member. There is also the small matter of the war crimes he took part in with the enslaved labor at his factory in Peenemünde.

icelancer 9y ago
>Van Braun being washed of his Nazi part is a conscious part of a US government propaganda campaign as Von Braun having safe haven in the USA in the 1950s was very controversial at the time. I honestly thought this was common knowledge amongst people who know who Von Braun was. He was a Nazi collaborator and party member in full blood. As you noted, explaining his actions with the camps he ran would be an interesting exercise for any apologist.
justinator 9y ago
> There were millions of people in Germany in both industry and the military who were not Nazi's and survived just fine Well, let's talk about that. How many of those millions who were both in both industry and the military AND ALSO were rocket scientists? > Note that unlike Von Braun many other Germany scientists and weapon designers were not members of the Nazi party (let alone enthusiastic members) For example? I'm not here to post up your argument. > Becoming a Nazi and joining the party is what a person consciously did either because they > believed in the ideology or they wanted to collaborate to further their careers. It's not apocryphal to say that full German citizens not persecuted for the racial background joined the Nazi party to escape suspicion of infidelity to the Führer's master plan of Aryan takeover, especially if you were an intellectual. Let's bring up another member of the Nazi party: Oskar Schindler. Tell me your criticism of Mr. Schindler. Was he acting in a purely selfish way? > There is also the small matter of the war crimes he took part in with the enslaved labor at his factory in Peenemünde. OK, let's talk about another German with the scientific mind whose knowledge and genius was enough to kill thousands of people: Albert Einstein. Do we blame him for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Cold War, and the tens of thousands of live nuclear warheads? His choice was similar: Death (as a Jew in Germany), or help make the A Bomb. Should he have chosen, "Death"?
- nikcub 9y ago
  > For example? I'm not here to post up your argument. Easy as looking at the other V programs. Fritz Gosslau was the designer of the V1 - not a Nazi. August Coenders was the chief designer of the V3 - also not a Nazi. Robert Lusser worked on engines - not a Nazi (ended up at NASA). Hans von Ohain, designer of the jet engine and worked on the ME232 - not a Nazi. Walter Thiel was the head of the research lab at Peenemünde - not a nazi. Klaus Riedel worked on the rocket with Von Braun - not a Nazi. All of Von Braun's deputies also weren't Nazi's (at least in the research part, I think it is fair to say that his subordinates in the SS were Nazi's). It would actually be easier to list those of the Wehrmacht and in science / industry who were Nazi's (or were sympathetic to them) - since most certainly were not. Most famously that would be Albert Spier, the Krupp family, Erich Schumann of the nuclear program, Göring, etc. Most of the military high command weren't Nazi's (or technically, sympathetic to the Nazi's since it was illegal to be both in the military and a member of a political party). They despised Hitler, as they despised Bizmark before him - because the German military had always been famously independent of civilian leadership and its own organization. Hitler taking the reigns of military strategy was the antithesis of how these guys had been bought up and trained. > Tell me your criticism of Mr. Schindler. He was a Nazi, until he changed sides. He assisted the takeover of the Sudetenland with his spying. Schindler regretted his actions and worked against the Nazi's. Von Braun never did that - he just tried to minimize his role. Plus even Schindler never joined the SS.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    Stop using the greengrocer's apostrophe. The plural of Nazi is Nazis, with no apostrophe. Acceptable uses of the apostrophe: possessives contractions abbreviations glottal stops disambiguation in transliterations Yes, I am aware of the moniker applied to those that nitpick grammatical errors.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    None of those designers had to join the Nazi party or SS because Von Braun did it for them. He was told he had to suck up to Himmler to protect the program. He was obviously ambitious and it suited his ambition well, but he was also protective of his team. And Von Braun ended up being arrested by the Gestapo for perceived disloyalty. Hitler only approved his release after Speers entreaties that Von Braun was indespensable.
hoorayimhelping 9y ago
>Van Braun being washed of his Nazi part is a conscious part of a US government propaganda campaign as Von Braun having safe haven in the USA in the 1950s was very controversial at the time. It's as simple as the USA overlooking his Nazi past and excusing it (and actively covering it up) because the cold war necessitated it. First I've ever heard of that. Do you have any proof of that? If it was very controversial, there's sure to be articles and discussions about it, right?
- jacquesm 9y ago
  That it's the first you've heard of it doesn't mean Google suddenly stopped working or that the GP is under any obligation to provide you with proof.
- nikcub 9y ago
  Two books cover it extensively, Apollo[0] and Red Moon Rising[1] - I can't remember the exact date, but at some point even Albert Einstein wrote a letter opposing Von Braun. By the mid-50s his history had been all washed over and forgotten, and it wasn't until the 90s that the issue was broached again. There is no reason for the coverup to continue today or for anybody to still believe it - there is a lot of testimony about Von Braun overseeing hangings and the deaths of thousands of slave workers. Had he not been useful for other purposes it is almost certain that he would have hung at Nuremberg. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Race-Moon-Charles-Murray/dp/0671611011 https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Race-Moon-Charles-Murray/dp/06... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Red-Moon-Rising-Sputnik-Rivalries/dp/080508858X/ https://www.amazon.com/Red-Moon-Rising-Sputnik-Rivalries/dp/...
- justin66 9y ago
  Aside from the serious history stuff that you haven't even tried to find, it was the topic of a song by Tom Lehrer, America's greatest political satirist: http://www.metrolyrics.com/wernher-von-braun-lyrics-tom-lehrer.html http://www.metrolyrics.com/wernher-von-braun-lyrics-tom-lehr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro
- valuearb 9y ago
  Von Braun became an SS member when told he had to to protect the program. He was obviously ambitious and it suited his ambition well, but he was also protective of his team. And Von Braun ended up being arrested by the Gestapo for perceived disloyalty. Hitler only approved his release after Speers entreaties that Von Braun was indespensable.

by nikcub 9y ago

icelancer 9y ago

>Van Braun being washed of his Nazi part is a conscious part of a US government propaganda campaign as Von Braun having safe haven in the USA in the 1950s was very controversial at the time. I honestly thought this was common knowledge amongst people who know who Von Braun was. He was a Nazi collaborator and party member in full blood. As you noted, explaining his actions with the camps he ran would be an interesting exercise for any apologist.

justinator 9y ago

> There were millions of people in Germany in both industry and the military who were not Nazi's and survived just fine Well, let's talk about that. How many of those millions who were both in both industry and the military AND ALSO were rocket scientists? > Note that unlike Von Braun many other Germany scientists and weapon designers were not members of the Nazi party (let alone enthusiastic members) For example? I'm not here to post up your argument. > Becoming a Nazi and joining the party is what a person consciously did either because they > believed in the ideology or they wanted to collaborate to further their careers. It's not apocryphal to say that full German citizens not persecuted for the racial background joined the Nazi party to escape suspicion of infidelity to the Führer's master plan of Aryan takeover, especially if you were an intellectual. Let's bring up another member of the Nazi party: Oskar Schindler. Tell me your criticism of Mr. Schindler. Was he acting in a purely selfish way? > There is also the small matter of the war crimes he took part in with the enslaved labor at his factory in Peenemünde. OK, let's talk about another German with the scientific mind whose knowledge and genius was enough to kill thousands of people: Albert Einstein. Do we blame him for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Cold War, and the tens of thousands of live nuclear warheads? His choice was similar: Death (as a Jew in Germany), or help make the A Bomb. Should he have chosen, "Death"?

nikcub 9y ago
> For example? I'm not here to post up your argument. Easy as looking at the other V programs. Fritz Gosslau was the designer of the V1 - not a Nazi. August Coenders was the chief designer of the V3 - also not a Nazi. Robert Lusser worked on engines - not a Nazi (ended up at NASA). Hans von Ohain, designer of the jet engine and worked on the ME232 - not a Nazi. Walter Thiel was the head of the research lab at Peenemünde - not a nazi. Klaus Riedel worked on the rocket with Von Braun - not a Nazi. All of Von Braun's deputies also weren't Nazi's (at least in the research part, I think it is fair to say that his subordinates in the SS were Nazi's). It would actually be easier to list those of the Wehrmacht and in science / industry who were Nazi's (or were sympathetic to them) - since most certainly were not. Most famously that would be Albert Spier, the Krupp family, Erich Schumann of the nuclear program, Göring, etc. Most of the military high command weren't Nazi's (or technically, sympathetic to the Nazi's since it was illegal to be both in the military and a member of a political party). They despised Hitler, as they despised Bizmark before him - because the German military had always been famously independent of civilian leadership and its own organization. Hitler taking the reigns of military strategy was the antithesis of how these guys had been bought up and trained. > Tell me your criticism of Mr. Schindler. He was a Nazi, until he changed sides. He assisted the takeover of the Sudetenland with his spying. Schindler regretted his actions and worked against the Nazi's. Von Braun never did that - he just tried to minimize his role. Plus even Schindler never joined the SS.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  Stop using the greengrocer's apostrophe. The plural of Nazi is Nazis, with no apostrophe. Acceptable uses of the apostrophe: possessives contractions abbreviations glottal stops disambiguation in transliterations Yes, I am aware of the moniker applied to those that nitpick grammatical errors.
- valuearb 9y ago
  None of those designers had to join the Nazi party or SS because Von Braun did it for them. He was told he had to suck up to Himmler to protect the program. He was obviously ambitious and it suited his ambition well, but he was also protective of his team. And Von Braun ended up being arrested by the Gestapo for perceived disloyalty. Hitler only approved his release after Speers entreaties that Von Braun was indespensable.

hoorayimhelping 9y ago

>Van Braun being washed of his Nazi part is a conscious part of a US government propaganda campaign as Von Braun having safe haven in the USA in the 1950s was very controversial at the time. It's as simple as the USA overlooking his Nazi past and excusing it (and actively covering it up) because the cold war necessitated it. First I've ever heard of that. Do you have any proof of that? If it was very controversial, there's sure to be articles and discussions about it, right?

jacquesm 9y ago
That it's the first you've heard of it doesn't mean Google suddenly stopped working or that the GP is under any obligation to provide you with proof.
nikcub 9y ago
Two books cover it extensively, Apollo[0] and Red Moon Rising[1] - I can't remember the exact date, but at some point even Albert Einstein wrote a letter opposing Von Braun. By the mid-50s his history had been all washed over and forgotten, and it wasn't until the 90s that the issue was broached again. There is no reason for the coverup to continue today or for anybody to still believe it - there is a lot of testimony about Von Braun overseeing hangings and the deaths of thousands of slave workers. Had he not been useful for other purposes it is almost certain that he would have hung at Nuremberg. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Race-Moon-Charles-Murray/dp/0671611011 https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Race-Moon-Charles-Murray/dp/06... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Red-Moon-Rising-Sputnik-Rivalries/dp/080508858X/ https://www.amazon.com/Red-Moon-Rising-Sputnik-Rivalries/dp/...
justin66 9y ago
Aside from the serious history stuff that you haven't even tried to find, it was the topic of a song by Tom Lehrer, America's greatest political satirist: http://www.metrolyrics.com/wernher-von-braun-lyrics-tom-lehrer.html http://www.metrolyrics.com/wernher-von-braun-lyrics-tom-lehr... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro
valuearb 9y ago
Von Braun became an SS member when told he had to to protect the program. He was obviously ambitious and it suited his ambition well, but he was also protective of his team. And Von Braun ended up being arrested by the Gestapo for perceived disloyalty. Hitler only approved his release after Speers entreaties that Von Braun was indespensable.