6 ms·

And the other guy's reply: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2017/q2/597 http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2017/q2/597

microcolonel 9y ago
> Just like you spend your time focusing on versions of Linux nobody actually uses (they use stable kernels or distro kernels) but which benefits your corporate sponsors and maintains the churn you want to force everyone to contribute to. The days of Linux being a community project are long gone, it's a fairy tale at this point. Clearly a load of crap. I think they should quit being spicy and think about what they should be doing instead.
moxious 9y ago
"Days of our lives" Linux kernel edition. Do many people have a taste for kernel drama and Linus antics? I mostly just want the software.
- btian 9y ago
  Then write your own? Why bother commenting here.
- benchaney 9y ago
  Then just use the software. You get the same version whether you read lkml or not.
Diederich 9y ago
Note: this is a lot tamer than a lot of the stuff I've seen him post in lwn.net comments. I have a lot of respect for their work. It's just a shame that their toxic communications will make the good things they do so much less likely to be widely adopted.
- babyrainbow 9y ago
  > their toxic communications If you can't handle the truth, then every truhful communication can be "toxic" to you.
  - weego 9y ago
    If you speak the truth like an asshole all anyone will take away from it is that you're an asshole.
    - babyrainbow 9y ago
      Sure. But sometime, you can take away only that. but the loss will be all yours. I mean, somebody can give you a block on gold unpolished and unwrapped. Sure, you can say, "How dare you give me that gold unwrapped! There is no way I am taking it. I demand you give that wrapped up property in fancy paper and tied with a ribbon." Sure you can say that. But the loss will be all yours. You got the shit anyway and gained no gold... So the point is, if it the speaker who has to gain something by getting their point across, sure. They will have to be diplomatic. But when someone, halfway across the world is teaching you something from their ridiculously singular experience, seemingly in a rude way... You shut up and listen.
      - breakingcups 9y ago
        I'm not sure gold is the right analogy in this case.. I think that is holding grsecurity's work in higher esteem than is necessary. Don't forget, the code is just part of the work. Ones attitude in contributing that code is another large part of what makes the work "gold". A better analogy might person A be handing person B back an improvement on person B's own recipe. However, the improvement is written on a piece of paper drenched in piss. Don't forget, the entire reason grsecurity is able to exist at all is because the Linux kernel is open source and because countless of volunteers and companies have dedicated their time and energy doing exactly what grsecurity fails to do, contributing back in a manner which makes live livable for the maintainers. Each and every one of them could've decided to not bother properly splitting up patches, to not bother documenting their changes properly, and they personally wouldn't have been worse off in a lot of cases. However, because they decided to use proper communication skills (eg. not be a dick), everyone wins.
        notdonspaulding 9y ago
- qb45 9y ago
  > It's just a shame that their toxic communications will make the good things they do so much less likely to be widely adopted. You are talking as if they wanted it to be upstreamed in the first place, which isn't quite obvious from this email.
  - hitekker 9y ago
    /u/mikemol in the reddit thread has a theory behind the contradiction: > I've no doubt Brad is smart, but the play reads like an attempt at a Xanatos Gambits where he technically makes his fixes public, but deliberately keeps them tough to use, so his competitors get horrid press if they don't use the fixes, but have to expend more resources than necessary in order to use them, furthering his market posture. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/6j7saq/linus_torvalds_opinion_on_grsecurity/djcajep/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/6j7saq/linus_torvald...
jlarocco 9y ago
Seems like a waste of time for him to hold up that side of the argument. Even if he's 100% correct, what's he going to achieve? The changes aren't going into the kernel until they get past Linus, and for that to happen the patches need to meet the same standards as every other patch. It's not like he's going to lower the bar for one company.
- detaro 9y ago
  Same goes for Linus though. The "best" he can achieve is maybe stopping people from getting patches from grsecurity, which isn't a very productive use of his time either. Relations between these two camps have been poisoned long ago, unless someone with a budget decides it's worth paying grsecurity to help patch the mainline kernel I don't expect any change, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if that project fails.
- sangnoir 9y ago
  > Even if he's 100% correct, what's he going to achieve? The changes aren't going into the kernel until they get past Linus You are incorrectly assuming grsec guy wants the changes[1] in the mainline Linux kernel - this would destroy a huge fraction of the value proposition. In a follow-up message, Linus directly challenged them on how they intentionally make their patches hard to upstream (and how they complain about 'leeching' if someone does attempt to upstream - talk about lack of self-awareness). 1. He might not mind old changes, but the quicker the new patches get upstreamed, the less valuable the patchset becomes for their paying clients
dm319 9y ago
>You're out of touch with reality Linus. In what world would anyone sign up for your "generous" offer to be called clowns, that their patches are garbage, that they should do thousands of hours of work for free for a bunch of multi-billion dollar corporations that aren't contributing a single dime or any direct work back? Seems a strange thing to say for a company whose revenue is completely dependent on a product, and it's source code, which they obtain for free, to modify and sell for profit.
baybal2 9y ago
This man is being called Trollvalds for a reason

> Just like you spend your time focusing on versions of Linux nobody actually uses (they use stable kernels or distro kernels) but which benefits your corporate sponsors and maintains the churn you want to force everyone to contribute to. The days of Linux being a community project are long gone, it's a fairy tale at this point. Clearly a load of crap. I think they should quit being spicy and think about what they should be doing instead.

moxious 9y ago

"Days of our lives" Linux kernel edition. Do many people have a taste for kernel drama and Linus antics? I mostly just want the software.

btian 9y ago
Then write your own? Why bother commenting here.
benchaney 9y ago
Then just use the software. You get the same version whether you read lkml or not.

Diederich 9y ago

Note: this is a lot tamer than a lot of the stuff I've seen him post in lwn.net comments. I have a lot of respect for their work. It's just a shame that their toxic communications will make the good things they do so much less likely to be widely adopted.

babyrainbow 9y ago
> their toxic communications If you can't handle the truth, then every truhful communication can be "toxic" to you.
- weego 9y ago
  If you speak the truth like an asshole all anyone will take away from it is that you're an asshole.
  - babyrainbow 9y ago
    Sure. But sometime, you can take away only that. but the loss will be all yours. I mean, somebody can give you a block on gold unpolished and unwrapped. Sure, you can say, "How dare you give me that gold unwrapped! There is no way I am taking it. I demand you give that wrapped up property in fancy paper and tied with a ribbon." Sure you can say that. But the loss will be all yours. You got the shit anyway and gained no gold... So the point is, if it the speaker who has to gain something by getting their point across, sure. They will have to be diplomatic. But when someone, halfway across the world is teaching you something from their ridiculously singular experience, seemingly in a rude way... You shut up and listen.
    - breakingcups 9y ago
      I'm not sure gold is the right analogy in this case.. I think that is holding grsecurity's work in higher esteem than is necessary. Don't forget, the code is just part of the work. Ones attitude in contributing that code is another large part of what makes the work "gold". A better analogy might person A be handing person B back an improvement on person B's own recipe. However, the improvement is written on a piece of paper drenched in piss. Don't forget, the entire reason grsecurity is able to exist at all is because the Linux kernel is open source and because countless of volunteers and companies have dedicated their time and energy doing exactly what grsecurity fails to do, contributing back in a manner which makes live livable for the maintainers. Each and every one of them could've decided to not bother properly splitting up patches, to not bother documenting their changes properly, and they personally wouldn't have been worse off in a lot of cases. However, because they decided to use proper communication skills (eg. not be a dick), everyone wins.
      - notdonspaulding 9y ago
qb45 9y ago
> It's just a shame that their toxic communications will make the good things they do so much less likely to be widely adopted. You are talking as if they wanted it to be upstreamed in the first place, which isn't quite obvious from this email.
- hitekker 9y ago
  /u/mikemol in the reddit thread has a theory behind the contradiction: > I've no doubt Brad is smart, but the play reads like an attempt at a Xanatos Gambits where he technically makes his fixes public, but deliberately keeps them tough to use, so his competitors get horrid press if they don't use the fixes, but have to expend more resources than necessary in order to use them, furthering his market posture. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/6j7saq/linus_torvalds_opinion_on_grsecurity/djcajep/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/6j7saq/linus_torvald...

jlarocco 9y ago

Seems like a waste of time for him to hold up that side of the argument. Even if he's 100% correct, what's he going to achieve? The changes aren't going into the kernel until they get past Linus, and for that to happen the patches need to meet the same standards as every other patch. It's not like he's going to lower the bar for one company.

detaro 9y ago
Same goes for Linus though. The "best" he can achieve is maybe stopping people from getting patches from grsecurity, which isn't a very productive use of his time either. Relations between these two camps have been poisoned long ago, unless someone with a budget decides it's worth paying grsecurity to help patch the mainline kernel I don't expect any change, and even then I wouldn't be surprised if that project fails.
sangnoir 9y ago
> Even if he's 100% correct, what's he going to achieve? The changes aren't going into the kernel until they get past Linus You are incorrectly assuming grsec guy wants the changes[1] in the mainline Linux kernel - this would destroy a huge fraction of the value proposition. In a follow-up message, Linus directly challenged them on how they intentionally make their patches hard to upstream (and how they complain about 'leeching' if someone does attempt to upstream - talk about lack of self-awareness). 1. He might not mind old changes, but the quicker the new patches get upstreamed, the less valuable the patchset becomes for their paying clients

dm319 9y ago

>You're out of touch with reality Linus. In what world would anyone sign up for your "generous" offer to be called clowns, that their patches are garbage, that they should do thousands of hours of work for free for a bunch of multi-billion dollar corporations that aren't contributing a single dime or any direct work back? Seems a strange thing to say for a company whose revenue is completely dependent on a product, and it's source code, which they obtain for free, to modify and sell for profit.

baybal2 9y ago

This man is being called Trollvalds for a reason