8 ms·

"Implement a red-black tree on a whiteboard" is code for "we don't know how to interview, so we ask about stuff that the hiree will never do". I'm not so sure

"Implement a red-black tree on a whiteboard" is code for "we don't know how to interview, so we ask about stuff that the hiree will never do". I'm not so sure the "advantage" is actually an advantage.

tcbawo 9y ago
I don't like this question for an interview. But I have also seen and received questions with a larger scope that require working together, asking questions, etc.
pjmlp 9y ago
Which means Google doesn't know how to interview.
- lin_lin 9y ago
  I'd agree with that. If it takes 10 interviews for a company to properly assess someone, the problem is most definitely with the company.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Wouldn't that be an argument from authority? Yeah, it's very possible that Google doesn't know how to interview. I don't think it's a solved problem anywhere in the industry -- teams just do what seems to work for them, with lots of false positives and negatives.
- sgift 9y ago
  Norvig said* that their tracking of peoples performance shows that people who would normally be filtered out by their standard tests, but still were hired due to someone fighting for them do constantly better than those who do well in their interviews. So yes, Google actually doesn't know how to interview. * As far as I remember it was in Coders at Work (very good book btw)
  - myth_drannon 9y ago
    It just means that the people who were hired outside the standard process were extremely talented and were worth fighting for. It does mean anything about Google's interview process because it is geared towards an application from your average Joe from the street.
- s_kilk 9y ago
  Classic argument from authority. Big, successful entities can do dumb shit too.
- mcv 9y ago
  Google might be one of the few companies in the world where this kind of knowledge is relevant for the work you do.
- gaius 9y ago
  Well, they don't. They hire people who make Glass, Wave, Buzz and all the other projects they've had to cancel because their staff are so out of sync with the real world.
- collyw 9y ago
  They did make the "why are manhole covers round" type of questions popular a few years back. Then admitted later that it had no correlation with on the job performance.
- pc86 9y ago
  To be fair, Google, Netflix, FB, Amazon, etc are some of the companies on a very short list of places where you would actually need to have an in depth knowledge of this type of stuff to do your job well. If your job is scaling or optimization at Google, yes you should definitely know this stuff. If your job is building the latest CRUD app in Xamarin, you probably don't need to know how to implement your own bubble sort in pseudo code (without access to any resources, at that).
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  but it knows how to select, and that's way more important.
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
We are talking about real jobs now, the ones with real coding interviews because they pay real money and come with stability and opportunity within an exciting company-- just to clarify. DHH said something about this recently and how he could not do a bubble sort if his life depended on it or something to that effect. So, yeah. You're right. And these respected people need to start doing something about this gated community of tech. The thing-- well, one of the many things-- people need to start getting honest about is how we interview and what we consider "skill" or "merit" and if that thing should be the thing we select for. If the interview system is all about how well you can memorize "Cracking the Coding Interview" and the like and then how well you can act like you are then "thinking it through at sight, never before having seen it" (which is exactly what it's about now in this age of bootcamp prep for bootcamp prep for bootcamp), then isn't the interview system selecting for a very particular type of person? I'd say that person has a lot of time on their hands and a desperate need to get a job in programming. That person somehow bought that time with loans they are scared to death they will never be able to pay back (they probably won't) because they are career changers, or they are young or youngish- still parentally funded--- or just still parentally funded. Or their spouse or partner has $$ work and they can afford to take the time to practice these things to be competitive. I'm sure there is an exception of one woman, against all odds here, but I have not yet met her. Please, give her a shout out! So, basically this tech interview process filters for young people with money and leisure time to practice the "skill" of programming until they can whiteboard like Marlon Brando. Not to ding algorithms- they are cool and all, but you see what I'm saying. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are still pre post-labor. And the cracks are showing when labor is now a gated community that likes to hire Ivy League Grads and likes to keep out people of color, women, people over 35,etc...and then likes to also get itself into the new - well, I won't give it a name... let's call it the H1B program for short.

tcbawo 9y ago

I don't like this question for an interview. But I have also seen and received questions with a larger scope that require working together, asking questions, etc.

pjmlp 9y ago

Which means Google doesn't know how to interview.

lin_lin 9y ago
I'd agree with that. If it takes 10 interviews for a company to properly assess someone, the problem is most definitely with the company.
coldtea 9y ago
Wouldn't that be an argument from authority? Yeah, it's very possible that Google doesn't know how to interview. I don't think it's a solved problem anywhere in the industry -- teams just do what seems to work for them, with lots of false positives and negatives.
sgift 9y ago
Norvig said* that their tracking of peoples performance shows that people who would normally be filtered out by their standard tests, but still were hired due to someone fighting for them do constantly better than those who do well in their interviews. So yes, Google actually doesn't know how to interview. * As far as I remember it was in Coders at Work (very good book btw)
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  It just means that the people who were hired outside the standard process were extremely talented and were worth fighting for. It does mean anything about Google's interview process because it is geared towards an application from your average Joe from the street.
s_kilk 9y ago
Classic argument from authority. Big, successful entities can do dumb shit too.
mcv 9y ago
Google might be one of the few companies in the world where this kind of knowledge is relevant for the work you do.
gaius 9y ago
Well, they don't. They hire people who make Glass, Wave, Buzz and all the other projects they've had to cancel because their staff are so out of sync with the real world.
collyw 9y ago
They did make the "why are manhole covers round" type of questions popular a few years back. Then admitted later that it had no correlation with on the job performance.
pc86 9y ago
To be fair, Google, Netflix, FB, Amazon, etc are some of the companies on a very short list of places where you would actually need to have an in depth knowledge of this type of stuff to do your job well. If your job is scaling or optimization at Google, yes you should definitely know this stuff. If your job is building the latest CRUD app in Xamarin, you probably don't need to know how to implement your own bubble sort in pseudo code (without access to any resources, at that).
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
but it knows how to select, and that's way more important.

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

We are talking about real jobs now, the ones with real coding interviews because they pay real money and come with stability and opportunity within an exciting company-- just to clarify. DHH said something about this recently and how he could not do a bubble sort if his life depended on it or something to that effect. So, yeah. You're right. And these respected people need to start doing something about this gated community of tech. The thing-- well, one of the many things-- people need to start getting honest about is how we interview and what we consider "skill" or "merit" and if that thing should be the thing we select for. If the interview system is all about how well you can memorize "Cracking the Coding Interview" and the like and then how well you can act like you are then "thinking it through at sight, never before having seen it" (which is exactly what it's about now in this age of bootcamp prep for bootcamp prep for bootcamp), then isn't the interview system selecting for a very particular type of person? I'd say that person has a lot of time on their hands and a desperate need to get a job in programming. That person somehow bought that time with loans they are scared to death they will never be able to pay back (they probably won't) because they are career changers, or they are young or youngish- still parentally funded--- or just still parentally funded. Or their spouse or partner has $$ work and they can afford to take the time to practice these things to be competitive. I'm sure there is an exception of one woman, against all odds here, but I have not yet met her. Please, give her a shout out! So, basically this tech interview process filters for young people with money and leisure time to practice the "skill" of programming until they can whiteboard like Marlon Brando. Not to ding algorithms- they are cool and all, but you see what I'm saying. We are trying to convince ourselves that we are still pre post-labor. And the cracks are showing when labor is now a gated community that likes to hire Ivy League Grads and likes to keep out people of color, women, people over 35,etc...and then likes to also get itself into the new - well, I won't give it a name... let's call it the H1B program for short.