6 ms·

Whats the logic here? Are applicants >40 generally worse performers?

by ruleabidinguser 9y ago

hackits 9y ago
No one has mentioned that sometimes older people don't fit into the culture of the business.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  So funny to be called older people when you are 43 and party with the best of them. Anyway. This is why I decided to start my own company again after 4 1/2 years at Square. This way age becomes an asset rather than a liability.
  - hackits 9y ago
    I think if you're 43 and can party with young people in there 20's then you've screwed up somewhere along the way.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      In what regard?
  - flukus 9y ago
    How do you recover? I'm only 33 and while I can still party with the best of them it takes it out of me. No more $1 drinks until midnight on Thursdays and being back at work at 8am.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      I don't recover I just don't do it as often as I used to :) I have two kids how wake me up between 5-6 am.
- a3n 9y ago
  Except if an "older than us" came into the business, the culture would change somewhat. But we always want to keep out people that are different from us, in the small and in the large.
- delazeur 9y ago
  There is an extent to which culture fit is an appropriate discriminator, but writing people off based on their age is taking it too far.
  - hackits 9y ago
    Really sit down and ask yourself do you really want to be in your 40's around 20 year old's who have completely different ethical, moral, and work ethic than you do? Personally I would rather find/work for a business that have similar cultural values as myself than find a business that have completely differing values. Being at a start-up when you're young, healthy and want to go out with your colleges and get hammer after work is fantastic. Though when you're in your 40's I can see nothing better than finishing work at 5pm, going for a 1 hour jogging with my partner and curling up in bed at 10pm to read a book. Do I think I will fit into a young crowed who have absolutely no social circles outside of work in their 20's now? The answer is no. Do I get approached by startup's to start some new fancy facebook clone every 2-3 weeks? The answer is 'yes' but I decline their offer's.
    - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
      This would be your choice to make, and it seems you get to make it. Great! But the point is: so many do not because employers make it for them by discriminating against them based on their age.
      - hackits 9y ago
        I cannot speak for a employers, but I would say they've found a better person for the position. Either it be by age, sex, religion, health, ect... They're in the Business to make money and they've chosen somebody who is younger, more eager for the position than you. Accept it and move on.
        delazeur 9y ago
        > Either it be by age, sex, religion, health I'm fairly sure those criteria are all illegal, at least in most U.S. states if not at the federal level. Also, it's a huge leap to say that discrimination is motivated by profits. I have no idea how you worked that one out.
- brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
  I'd like this explained in FULL COLOR if you please. What does this mean? "the culture of the business" Because from my vantage point (and I think from the vantage point of women, people of color, people over 40, and people with pink reptiles for pets at home) culture-fit is the way we do sexism, racism, ageism, whateverism, and anti-pink-pet-ism these days. But I'd love to hear a truly legit explanation for it from someone here. Anyone?
  - hackits 9y ago
    Businesses have three major phases they go through. They're adolescence, teenager, and maturity. Adolescence is the phase where the business is formed, and there isn't any formal procedural manual written or processes within the business, but they've either achieve funding and backing from a niche market. Mostly this is where businesses either promote the importance of keeping everyone together to achieve a `collective` dream to improve the world. In this phase all hands are on-deck to get to the goal, and generally during this phase the business owners have no idea what they're doing and typically will either over-sell a service or promise the moon and the pay is all over the place. During the teenager years, (if) the business is still profitable and hasn't bankrupt itself the business owner start noticing the need for formal operation procedure manuals. They've either felt the pain of the lose of key developer and or customer and they to secure their position within the market place. Typically this is where in one form or another organisation charts come into existence and more formal documentation and processes start. Either in this time/frame you have HR/Sales/Support starting to take form. During the maturity years, most of the teenager years of formalizing and documentation of procedures manual is in full swing. You have well defined organisation charts with formal processes to follow and legal department to sign off on new contracts. You have the existence of Managers of each department to coordinate the necessary sales goals, and marketing goal for the business. In each of the three different phase you have cultural shifts. From young and dream focused. Then the shift during teenage years of reigning in the younger attitudes and formal processes. Then finally to the maturing phase where for better or worse a more mechanical and empirical processes of doing business.
    - woogiewonka 9y ago
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  More like experienced people are less likely to buy into just another rehash of a 30-years old idea.
winestock 9y ago
You don't get too old to be relevant. You get too old to be cheap.
- root_axis 9y ago
  Cheap is relative. In the U.S. $90-120k is a common salary for mid to senior level engineers working with trendy technologies all over the country (i.e. a salary within the top 10% of income earners in the U.S.). If you're rocking 25 years of experience in the industry and demanding a salary that's pushing into the $130k-200k range for a non-executive position, you're very likely going to get passed over in favor of a cheaper engineer that can produce similar results but is demanding a significantly smaller, but still excellent salary. The bottom line is, 20 years more experience doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be "20 years" more valuable to the company, especially if the trending tech stacks are all less than a decade old.
  - zebraflask 9y ago
    In any major metropolitan area, $120,000 is barely middle class.
    - UncleMeat 9y ago
      Barely middle class? That's an insane exaggeration. After taxes you are left with nearly double the median household income. Even if your rent is bonkers expensive, you still have way more money leftover than many people even start with. Barely middle class.
      - zebraflask 9y ago
        Consider the price of bread and milk in NYC or SF, or, you know, housing. Like I said, barely middle class.
        vacri 9y ago
        The median household income in the US is ~$52k. Unless your definition of 'middle class' is 'top quintile', $120k is not 'barely middle class'. NYC and SF are also notable outliers, and aren't representative of 'any major metropolitan areas'.
a3n 9y ago
Maybe if you're a <40 manager or interviewing team then you don't really know, so it's better not to risk it. Besides, what would you talk about at lunch?
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
The logic here goes like this: Oh no. Here is this person who is confident and seems to be pretty chill and nice. They are expert at what they do and seem truly interested in it enough to have done lots of independent work in their field just because they were interested. They actually have that BS term we all throw around like we knew what it meant called "passion". They make me feel like I don't know what I'm doing at all, and I feel really insecure already. What's worse- they are totally not being a jerk about this and must notice that I'm asking really surfacy questions when I should be asking much better ones since I'm interviewing them. Boy am I really nervous. I wonder if they can tell. (yes, we can tell, but it is fine- we were all young once. We all felt challenged once- it's great that you feel challenged at your job, and I'm happy for you about that---- I just want a job, dig?) Oh my god, if I hire this person I'll be afraid I'm a fake every single day, and I'll be nervous around them. I can't hire them becuase they will see through my bullshit. (yes, we will) they will know all my tricks because they have been here before (yes, we will) yeikes! Oh my god. I have to get them out of my office. I'll just hire that young person with no experience who makes me feel really really smart. Then I won't have to feel like I'm having a heart attack every day. --- I think the reasoning goes a little like that. Which is too bad, because we are thinking: hey- this economy sucks. I just want a job. Really any job. Just a nice job with nice people. I don't need to show you up. In fact, I might be a cool person you become friends with who you like to chat with during lunch you know? I can do this work in my sleep and I think I can help this company, and now that I'm in a great position to do so, no one will hire me? This is totally insane, and it is all because you are afraid someone will notice you are not qualified to do your job? Well, guess what? We notice. We just want to have a job at all. We can't turn back time, be 25 and look awesome in our skinny jeans. We just need to pay rent. But I get it, you need to feel mentally like you are not gonna die of anxiety every day. But this situation hurts everyone.
- woogiewonka 9y ago
  I wish I was in the hiring position so I could hire older people than me who have more wisdom so I could learn from them :)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

Whats the logic here? Are applicants >40 generally worse performers?

hackits 9y ago

No one has mentioned that sometimes older people don't fit into the culture of the business.

ThomPete 9y ago
So funny to be called older people when you are 43 and party with the best of them. Anyway. This is why I decided to start my own company again after 4 1/2 years at Square. This way age becomes an asset rather than a liability.
- hackits 9y ago
  I think if you're 43 and can party with young people in there 20's then you've screwed up somewhere along the way.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    In what regard?
- flukus 9y ago
  How do you recover? I'm only 33 and while I can still party with the best of them it takes it out of me. No more $1 drinks until midnight on Thursdays and being back at work at 8am.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    I don't recover I just don't do it as often as I used to :) I have two kids how wake me up between 5-6 am.
a3n 9y ago
Except if an "older than us" came into the business, the culture would change somewhat. But we always want to keep out people that are different from us, in the small and in the large.
delazeur 9y ago
There is an extent to which culture fit is an appropriate discriminator, but writing people off based on their age is taking it too far.
- hackits 9y ago
  Really sit down and ask yourself do you really want to be in your 40's around 20 year old's who have completely different ethical, moral, and work ethic than you do? Personally I would rather find/work for a business that have similar cultural values as myself than find a business that have completely differing values. Being at a start-up when you're young, healthy and want to go out with your colleges and get hammer after work is fantastic. Though when you're in your 40's I can see nothing better than finishing work at 5pm, going for a 1 hour jogging with my partner and curling up in bed at 10pm to read a book. Do I think I will fit into a young crowed who have absolutely no social circles outside of work in their 20's now? The answer is no. Do I get approached by startup's to start some new fancy facebook clone every 2-3 weeks? The answer is 'yes' but I decline their offer's.
  - brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
    This would be your choice to make, and it seems you get to make it. Great! But the point is: so many do not because employers make it for them by discriminating against them based on their age.
    - hackits 9y ago
      I cannot speak for a employers, but I would say they've found a better person for the position. Either it be by age, sex, religion, health, ect... They're in the Business to make money and they've chosen somebody who is younger, more eager for the position than you. Accept it and move on.
      - delazeur 9y ago
        > Either it be by age, sex, religion, health I'm fairly sure those criteria are all illegal, at least in most U.S. states if not at the federal level. Also, it's a huge leap to say that discrimination is motivated by profits. I have no idea how you worked that one out.
brooklyn_ashey 9y ago
I'd like this explained in FULL COLOR if you please. What does this mean? "the culture of the business" Because from my vantage point (and I think from the vantage point of women, people of color, people over 40, and people with pink reptiles for pets at home) culture-fit is the way we do sexism, racism, ageism, whateverism, and anti-pink-pet-ism these days. But I'd love to hear a truly legit explanation for it from someone here. Anyone?
- hackits 9y ago
  Businesses have three major phases they go through. They're adolescence, teenager, and maturity. Adolescence is the phase where the business is formed, and there isn't any formal procedural manual written or processes within the business, but they've either achieve funding and backing from a niche market. Mostly this is where businesses either promote the importance of keeping everyone together to achieve a `collective` dream to improve the world. In this phase all hands are on-deck to get to the goal, and generally during this phase the business owners have no idea what they're doing and typically will either over-sell a service or promise the moon and the pay is all over the place. During the teenager years, (if) the business is still profitable and hasn't bankrupt itself the business owner start noticing the need for formal operation procedure manuals. They've either felt the pain of the lose of key developer and or customer and they to secure their position within the market place. Typically this is where in one form or another organisation charts come into existence and more formal documentation and processes start. Either in this time/frame you have HR/Sales/Support starting to take form. During the maturity years, most of the teenager years of formalizing and documentation of procedures manual is in full swing. You have well defined organisation charts with formal processes to follow and legal department to sign off on new contracts. You have the existence of Managers of each department to coordinate the necessary sales goals, and marketing goal for the business. In each of the three different phase you have cultural shifts. From young and dream focused. Then the shift during teenage years of reigning in the younger attitudes and formal processes. Then finally to the maturing phase where for better or worse a more mechanical and empirical processes of doing business.
  - woogiewonka 9y ago
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
More like experienced people are less likely to buy into just another rehash of a 30-years old idea.

winestock 9y ago

You don't get too old to be relevant. You get too old to be cheap.

root_axis 9y ago
Cheap is relative. In the U.S. $90-120k is a common salary for mid to senior level engineers working with trendy technologies all over the country (i.e. a salary within the top 10% of income earners in the U.S.). If you're rocking 25 years of experience in the industry and demanding a salary that's pushing into the $130k-200k range for a non-executive position, you're very likely going to get passed over in favor of a cheaper engineer that can produce similar results but is demanding a significantly smaller, but still excellent salary. The bottom line is, 20 years more experience doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be "20 years" more valuable to the company, especially if the trending tech stacks are all less than a decade old.
- zebraflask 9y ago
  In any major metropolitan area, $120,000 is barely middle class.
  - UncleMeat 9y ago
    Barely middle class? That's an insane exaggeration. After taxes you are left with nearly double the median household income. Even if your rent is bonkers expensive, you still have way more money leftover than many people even start with. Barely middle class.
    - zebraflask 9y ago
      Consider the price of bread and milk in NYC or SF, or, you know, housing. Like I said, barely middle class.
      - vacri 9y ago
        The median household income in the US is ~$52k. Unless your definition of 'middle class' is 'top quintile', $120k is not 'barely middle class'. NYC and SF are also notable outliers, and aren't representative of 'any major metropolitan areas'.

a3n 9y ago

Maybe if you're a <40 manager or interviewing team then you don't really know, so it's better not to risk it. Besides, what would you talk about at lunch?

brooklyn_ashey 9y ago

The logic here goes like this: Oh no. Here is this person who is confident and seems to be pretty chill and nice. They are expert at what they do and seem truly interested in it enough to have done lots of independent work in their field just because they were interested. They actually have that BS term we all throw around like we knew what it meant called "passion". They make me feel like I don't know what I'm doing at all, and I feel really insecure already. What's worse- they are totally not being a jerk about this and must notice that I'm asking really surfacy questions when I should be asking much better ones since I'm interviewing them. Boy am I really nervous. I wonder if they can tell. (yes, we can tell, but it is fine- we were all young once. We all felt challenged once- it's great that you feel challenged at your job, and I'm happy for you about that---- I just want a job, dig?) Oh my god, if I hire this person I'll be afraid I'm a fake every single day, and I'll be nervous around them. I can't hire them becuase they will see through my bullshit. (yes, we will) they will know all my tricks because they have been here before (yes, we will) yeikes! Oh my god. I have to get them out of my office. I'll just hire that young person with no experience who makes me feel really really smart. Then I won't have to feel like I'm having a heart attack every day. --- I think the reasoning goes a little like that. Which is too bad, because we are thinking: hey- this economy sucks. I just want a job. Really any job. Just a nice job with nice people. I don't need to show you up. In fact, I might be a cool person you become friends with who you like to chat with during lunch you know? I can do this work in my sleep and I think I can help this company, and now that I'm in a great position to do so, no one will hire me? This is totally insane, and it is all because you are afraid someone will notice you are not qualified to do your job? Well, guess what? We notice. We just want to have a job at all. We can't turn back time, be 25 and look awesome in our skinny jeans. We just need to pay rent. But I get it, you need to feel mentally like you are not gonna die of anxiety every day. But this situation hurts everyone.

woogiewonka 9y ago
I wish I was in the hiring position so I could hire older people than me who have more wisdom so I could learn from them :)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]