5 ms·

I'm assuming this is a joke since there aren't separate power lines for renewable energy. :-)

jostmey 9y ago
No it is not. As a consumer in Dallas we get to choose which power company we want to buy from. Basically, we have to buy our share of electricity that is used from the grid.
- davidf18 9y ago
  But in this case, you are simply throwing your money away since the green producers aren't going to produce more energy because you and other consumers are paying them to. They will produce the same amount regardless. In that case, better to give the money to some charity that say, replaces incandescent bulbs with the newest LED lamps starting with your own house and office if you haven't already converted. Also, better to take mass transit than use the car. BTW, our brilliant NY Govenor Cuomo is putting a lot more carbon-based fuel back on-line. Because nuclear is more expensive than gas powered generation, he is removing the Indian Point nuclear power plant from the grid. This plant generates 1/4 the electricity for NYC and adjacent Westchester County. The population of NYC is 8.5 million, Westchester County is about 1 million. So removing the carbon-free power for about 2.5 million people. All will be replaced with carbon-based fuel generation. So much for people like you trying to be responsible and green.
  - jostmey 9y ago
    Are you trying to tell me that they won't build more windmills if that's what people are paying for?
    - hueving 9y ago
      Are you suggesting the transmission company would refuse the electricity from the wind mills if enough people aren't paying for the clean option? I'm curious how this works. What happens if you pay for clean and the wind isn't blowing at night? What happens if everyone paying for clean turns on their appliances and the demand outstrips the clean supply? I highly doubt there are blackouts in these occasions so it seems like someone is getting screwed.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - kbaker 9y ago
        All the electricity produced gets mixed in. To incentivize renewable energy production, "Renewable Energy Credits" are used for the bookkeeping of what kinds of energy is being generated, and are created when energy is produced by a renewable provider (handwaving a bit here...) Consumers and businesses can have their electric plan provider purchase these credits per their usage to make sure they are getting the correct portion that actually comes from a renewable source. So the demand and pricing is adjustable determined by the pricing of the credits.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        Or "screwed". It's pretty likely that the literature describing the plan mentions what happens when they can't buy renewable power.
      - jt2190 9y ago
        There is a secondary marketplace of "green energy futures". edit: Going from memory... The fine print on your electric bill in Texas says something like: "If we, the electricity provider, don't have enough renewable energy to meet your current need, we promise to offset the amount of non-renewable energy we provide to you now with a future purchase of the same amount of renewable energy from an electricity generator." In other words, you get the electricity today, they get the money today, but they have to buy more renewable energy in the future.
      - cestith 9y ago
        If people aren't paying the generators, they don't maintain their windmills and can't send electricity into distribution. In Texas you pay the retail company that's selling you the power. The distribution is a wholesale company that just sells the generator distribution capacity and maintains the lines. So yes, if people stopped buying from companies selling wind and solar only the companies selling gas and coal would be putting energy into the grid.
    - davidf18 9y ago
      > "Are you trying to tell me that they won't build more windmills..." The tilting at windmills joke comes to mind :-) Honestly, first off the article says that it seems that gas is less competitive than renewable, so there are already market incentives in Texas to build windmills. A lot of the money for windmill power simply ends up in General Electric's (the major US vendor for windmills) pockets. Also, I think ones energy is best put in doing what one can do to minimize energy consumption using LED lights in place of incandescents, using mass transit instead of one's automobile and working with city council in Dallas and other major Texas cities to encourage more production of mass transit. Also, doing what one can to turn up air conditioning from 72 to 76 or 78 in Dallas will save substantial amount of carbon-based power generation. There is also the use of microturbine technology that can be used for trigeneration meaning that water chillers for air-conditioning as well as electric power from natural gas. This is very efficient and if it received the same financial incentives and wind and solar probably much more cost effective.
      - adrianmonk 9y ago
        > A lot of the money for windmill power simply ends up in General Electric's (the major US vendor for windmills) pockets. I actively prefer it if GE (etc.) makes money building windmills. To switch to renewables, you have to build new infrastructure. That means the people who manufacture the equipment are going to make money. And they should make money! That's their reward for being part of the solution. Not to mention, it encourages them do more R&D because of the potential for better profits. And it encourages competitors to join in, which is even better.
  - kbaker 9y ago
    It is not throwing the money away - electricity distributors are required to buy additional portions of renewables for delivery. This increases demand and available investment funds for new renewable projects. Here's a section of the Terms of Service of my provider: "If you elect to purchase a renewable energy product, we will ensure that the appropriate amount of renewable energy credits (RECs) is retired to authenticate the renewable energy contained in the product." So here in TX we can actually individually vote with our wallets to make a difference in the makeup of renewable energy demands in the state. Maybe tiny steps at a time, but at least it is possible.
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    You can actually incentivized green energy production in this way. It's also possible for cunning utilities to have a government set target for renewable power which they turn round and sell to consumers as a green tariff. Google has lots of documents online about how they go about ensuring that their efforts to buy renewable energy actually help the grid get cleaner. "Additionality" is one buzzword that might help you locate them.
  - mcv 9y ago
    > But in this case, you are simply throwing your money away since the green producers aren't going to produce more energy because you and other consumers are paying them to. They will produce the same amount regardless. Yes they will. They get more money, so they can afford to invest in more green energy, and there's clearly more demand for clean energy, so it would be prudent to produce more of it. This is how markets work. You vote with your dollars.
- zeep 9y ago
  Do they do the same for internet providers?
  - randyrand 9y ago
    Why would they? The internet is the grid. There is no such thing as a "internet generation" device, like there is for electric power.
    - Crespyl 9y ago
      See "local loop unbundling." Right now, we generally treat "the internet as the grid", but there's no inherent reason we can't separate "the internet"/IP address and network peering from "the grid"/physical last-mile cables.
  - Crespyl 9y ago
    Not yet, but I'd love to see it. Having moved to Texas recently, I was really impressed by the electricity set up. There's one company which, I assume, is granted a local monopoly on power distribution (Oncor for my area, IIRC), and they handle the actual lines to the buildings/meters etc. I've never had to deal with them directly. I can choose from probably 40+ companies and different plans offering different rates, expected usage, contract terms, etc. and whatever other criteria I care about, all listed in one place and compared side-by-side on one website. It was really depressing having just gotten my head around that wealth of choice to then be told "for internet, you will have Spectrum."
iagovar 9y ago
IDK in the US, but in Spain you can actually "buy" only renewable energy, by paying a company that only pays for renewable producers in the pool.
- hueving 9y ago
  So what happens if it's night and the wind isn't blowing, does your electricity go out?
  - mcv 9y ago
    When the company is not producing enough energy to meet demand, it's probably required to purchase green energy elsewhere.
    - davidf18 9y ago
      But the energy is fungible. So that if it is purchasing the green energy from elsewhere, it is simply depriving others from that benefit meaning that ultimately is is carbon-based fuels that are used.
      - mcv 9y ago
        I think they also purchase it from elsewhen. At the moment, the fluctuation in demand is probably mostly handled by gas powered plants (because they're the quickest and most efficient to adapt). I suspect that green energy providers just need to meet the total demand over time for green energy, and end up paying gas plants for taking care of the fluctuations (because they need to buy energy when its expensive and sell it back when it's cheap). If the green power providers produce exactly as much over time as the demand from their customers, that would mean some of the customers'money would still go to the gas plants, so I suspect the green energy companies produce a bit more, so they have some extra to sell to make up the difference. It's absolutely true that until large scale efficient energy storage is real, green electricity will continue to depend on gas plants. Of all the fossil fuels, those will be the last to go, but that's okay, because it's both the cleanest and apparently the cheapest of the fossil fuels. But as long as there are still coal plants, there's still every reason to move forward with more green energy production.
exabrial 9y ago
Actually, in Texas you have your choice of transmission and distribution companies if I understand correctly haha.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

No it is not. As a consumer in Dallas we get to choose which power company we want to buy from. Basically, we have to buy our share of electricity that is used from the grid.

davidf18 9y ago
But in this case, you are simply throwing your money away since the green producers aren't going to produce more energy because you and other consumers are paying them to. They will produce the same amount regardless. In that case, better to give the money to some charity that say, replaces incandescent bulbs with the newest LED lamps starting with your own house and office if you haven't already converted. Also, better to take mass transit than use the car. BTW, our brilliant NY Govenor Cuomo is putting a lot more carbon-based fuel back on-line. Because nuclear is more expensive than gas powered generation, he is removing the Indian Point nuclear power plant from the grid. This plant generates 1/4 the electricity for NYC and adjacent Westchester County. The population of NYC is 8.5 million, Westchester County is about 1 million. So removing the carbon-free power for about 2.5 million people. All will be replaced with carbon-based fuel generation. So much for people like you trying to be responsible and green.
- jostmey 9y ago
  Are you trying to tell me that they won't build more windmills if that's what people are paying for?
  - hueving 9y ago
    Are you suggesting the transmission company would refuse the electricity from the wind mills if enough people aren't paying for the clean option? I'm curious how this works. What happens if you pay for clean and the wind isn't blowing at night? What happens if everyone paying for clean turns on their appliances and the demand outstrips the clean supply? I highly doubt there are blackouts in these occasions so it seems like someone is getting screwed.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - kbaker 9y ago
      All the electricity produced gets mixed in. To incentivize renewable energy production, "Renewable Energy Credits" are used for the bookkeeping of what kinds of energy is being generated, and are created when energy is produced by a renewable provider (handwaving a bit here...) Consumers and businesses can have their electric plan provider purchase these credits per their usage to make sure they are getting the correct portion that actually comes from a renewable source. So the demand and pricing is adjustable determined by the pricing of the credits.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      Or "screwed". It's pretty likely that the literature describing the plan mentions what happens when they can't buy renewable power.
    - jt2190 9y ago
      There is a secondary marketplace of "green energy futures". edit: Going from memory... The fine print on your electric bill in Texas says something like: "If we, the electricity provider, don't have enough renewable energy to meet your current need, we promise to offset the amount of non-renewable energy we provide to you now with a future purchase of the same amount of renewable energy from an electricity generator." In other words, you get the electricity today, they get the money today, but they have to buy more renewable energy in the future.
    - cestith 9y ago
      If people aren't paying the generators, they don't maintain their windmills and can't send electricity into distribution. In Texas you pay the retail company that's selling you the power. The distribution is a wholesale company that just sells the generator distribution capacity and maintains the lines. So yes, if people stopped buying from companies selling wind and solar only the companies selling gas and coal would be putting energy into the grid.
  - davidf18 9y ago
    > "Are you trying to tell me that they won't build more windmills..." The tilting at windmills joke comes to mind :-) Honestly, first off the article says that it seems that gas is less competitive than renewable, so there are already market incentives in Texas to build windmills. A lot of the money for windmill power simply ends up in General Electric's (the major US vendor for windmills) pockets. Also, I think ones energy is best put in doing what one can do to minimize energy consumption using LED lights in place of incandescents, using mass transit instead of one's automobile and working with city council in Dallas and other major Texas cities to encourage more production of mass transit. Also, doing what one can to turn up air conditioning from 72 to 76 or 78 in Dallas will save substantial amount of carbon-based power generation. There is also the use of microturbine technology that can be used for trigeneration meaning that water chillers for air-conditioning as well as electric power from natural gas. This is very efficient and if it received the same financial incentives and wind and solar probably much more cost effective.
    - adrianmonk 9y ago
      > A lot of the money for windmill power simply ends up in General Electric's (the major US vendor for windmills) pockets. I actively prefer it if GE (etc.) makes money building windmills. To switch to renewables, you have to build new infrastructure. That means the people who manufacture the equipment are going to make money. And they should make money! That's their reward for being part of the solution. Not to mention, it encourages them do more R&D because of the potential for better profits. And it encourages competitors to join in, which is even better.
- kbaker 9y ago
  It is not throwing the money away - electricity distributors are required to buy additional portions of renewables for delivery. This increases demand and available investment funds for new renewable projects. Here's a section of the Terms of Service of my provider: "If you elect to purchase a renewable energy product, we will ensure that the appropriate amount of renewable energy credits (RECs) is retired to authenticate the renewable energy contained in the product." So here in TX we can actually individually vote with our wallets to make a difference in the makeup of renewable energy demands in the state. Maybe tiny steps at a time, but at least it is possible.
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  You can actually incentivized green energy production in this way. It's also possible for cunning utilities to have a government set target for renewable power which they turn round and sell to consumers as a green tariff. Google has lots of documents online about how they go about ensuring that their efforts to buy renewable energy actually help the grid get cleaner. "Additionality" is one buzzword that might help you locate them.
- mcv 9y ago
  > But in this case, you are simply throwing your money away since the green producers aren't going to produce more energy because you and other consumers are paying them to. They will produce the same amount regardless. Yes they will. They get more money, so they can afford to invest in more green energy, and there's clearly more demand for clean energy, so it would be prudent to produce more of it. This is how markets work. You vote with your dollars.
zeep 9y ago
Do they do the same for internet providers?
- randyrand 9y ago
  Why would they? The internet is the grid. There is no such thing as a "internet generation" device, like there is for electric power.
  - Crespyl 9y ago
    See "local loop unbundling." Right now, we generally treat "the internet as the grid", but there's no inherent reason we can't separate "the internet"/IP address and network peering from "the grid"/physical last-mile cables.
- Crespyl 9y ago
  Not yet, but I'd love to see it. Having moved to Texas recently, I was really impressed by the electricity set up. There's one company which, I assume, is granted a local monopoly on power distribution (Oncor for my area, IIRC), and they handle the actual lines to the buildings/meters etc. I've never had to deal with them directly. I can choose from probably 40+ companies and different plans offering different rates, expected usage, contract terms, etc. and whatever other criteria I care about, all listed in one place and compared side-by-side on one website. It was really depressing having just gotten my head around that wealth of choice to then be told "for internet, you will have Spectrum."

iagovar 9y ago

IDK in the US, but in Spain you can actually "buy" only renewable energy, by paying a company that only pays for renewable producers in the pool.

hueving 9y ago
So what happens if it's night and the wind isn't blowing, does your electricity go out?
- mcv 9y ago
  When the company is not producing enough energy to meet demand, it's probably required to purchase green energy elsewhere.
  - davidf18 9y ago
    But the energy is fungible. So that if it is purchasing the green energy from elsewhere, it is simply depriving others from that benefit meaning that ultimately is is carbon-based fuels that are used.
    - mcv 9y ago
      I think they also purchase it from elsewhen. At the moment, the fluctuation in demand is probably mostly handled by gas powered plants (because they're the quickest and most efficient to adapt). I suspect that green energy providers just need to meet the total demand over time for green energy, and end up paying gas plants for taking care of the fluctuations (because they need to buy energy when its expensive and sell it back when it's cheap). If the green power providers produce exactly as much over time as the demand from their customers, that would mean some of the customers'money would still go to the gas plants, so I suspect the green energy companies produce a bit more, so they have some extra to sell to make up the difference. It's absolutely true that until large scale efficient energy storage is real, green electricity will continue to depend on gas plants. Of all the fossil fuels, those will be the last to go, but that's okay, because it's both the cleanest and apparently the cheapest of the fossil fuels. But as long as there are still coal plants, there's still every reason to move forward with more green energy production.

exabrial 9y ago

Actually, in Texas you have your choice of transmission and distribution companies if I understand correctly haha.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]