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This is related to https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-industry.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-indust... which I p

by ctoth 9y ago

This is related to https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-industry.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/business/retail-indust... which I posted a few weeks ago but got no traction. This is a critical part of the story that people talking about robots taking our jobs are missing. It's already happening, it's not just robots but also new scheduling algorithms and frankly people just not giving two shits about retail workers.

themodelplumber 9y ago
Education is going to be absolutely crucial for those who are currently performing retail work. I recently attended training by my church on this topic and one of the key focii at present is helping people get the education they need in order to become self-reliant, in any way that works for them. This has never been emphasized to this degree in the past, and the initiatives have enlarged scope from developing nations only to now include the US and Canada. Bachelor's degrees in e.g. web development from an accredited private religious university are offered for around $8K; courses in starting businesses and improving job prospects are offered on demand, etc. It is clear that there is a lot of need right now and the impact of the changing flow of business is being felt heavily.
- grogenaut 9y ago
  What uni gives a batcuelors for $8k? Even though I'm not religious I'd send my kid there for that savings.
- vkou 9y ago
  This is great advice for particular people, but does not scale to the entire economy.
- nickthemagicman 9y ago
  One of Bernie Sanders major platforms was tuition free education. Politicians can talk about 'jobs' all they want, but the real key is education. Because jobs of the future will ALL require some highly technical skill.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Free education: People get a longer education => Jobs get more selective about education and require longer studies => People have to get a longer education to get a job => Jobs get even more selective => etc... Cheaper education will create more educated people, unfortunately that doesn't create new job prospects.
    - eveningcoffee 9y ago
      Free education does not mean that you get paid while studding. You still have to find means to clothe and feed yourself and find a roof above your head during the nights.
    - nickthemagicman 9y ago
      Well that's the way the knowledge economy works! It's based on your knowledge. So obvs people with more knowledge have better opportunities. It's how it works today except lots of people are left out. The difference is, with everyone educated, now you have a highly knowledgeable populace who are capable of solving harder problems, starting business to solve these problems, etc. I would rather have 1000 people working on Cancer research than at the DMV pushing paper or laying brick. Things machines can do. We would have a net improvement in people's lives and the human race. It's like a win win for everyone.
  - vkou 9y ago
    Either that, or they will consist of housekeeping and gardening for the 1%.
  - eigenman 9y ago
    Although tuition free education is a good answer, it won't work for everyone. There is a distribution of intelligence and skill; not everyone will be able to perform the remaining highly technical jobs. What should our society do with these people? Leave them on the streets? Provide welfare/basic income? This is a critical question because more education will not scale to 100% of the population.
- mistermann 9y ago
  Training in what though, everyone can't be a web developer? If everything is manufactured overseas or by robots, retail is largely locked up the a handful of giant corporations who can bankrupt competitors, in many places the former middle class spends all their disposable income on housing and can't afford new services, and the 1% largely don't spend their money. And on top of it, the utopia promised by diversity is actual splitting societies, right when we most need cooperation and unity. To me this is start to look like an near unsolvable problem.
  - Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago
    A nice old-fashioned world war should solve it.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      If we keep pretending there's no problem, or hope these problem are going to solve themselves, we're going to end up with civil wars, at least.
      - godzillabrennus 9y ago
        America is already engaged in a "cold" civil war between the cities and the rural communities. The cultural and economic future of the nation is being legislated by the current victor. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
        qubex 9y ago
        ”Cold Civil War” is the best term to describe and surmise the current predicament I've read so far in years of considering these problems. Is it your phrase?
        louprado 9y ago
        First use I could find is by John Derbyshire June 27, 2013 [1]. This is a powerful phrase that hopefully finds common usage. Perhaps we'd all have less contempt towards opposing views if we are reminded that violence occurs when contempt levels get too high. [1] http://takimag.com/article/the_cold_civil_war_grinds_on_john_derbyshire/print#ixzz4l2lQBlcE http://takimag.com/article/the_cold_civil_war_grinds_on_john...
- Animats 9y ago
  Education is going to be absolutely crucial for those who are currently performing retail work. It won't help. About half of new college graduates are doing jobs that don't require a college education. Those are the ones heavily in debt, with a negative return on investment for college.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    Does this apply equally to STEM / medical / finance degrees, and e.g medieval history or social studies degrees?
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Only a handful of STEM degrees are really remunerative, and I don't think we can call putting everyone in a handful of engineering disciplines a serious solution.
- stupidcar 9y ago
  What kind of "web development" degrees are we talking about here? Because I see a lot of private universities and colleges taking ever penny from desperate people in exchange for teaching pretty basic IT skills. They're sold on the idea that if they know a bit about HTML and CSS it'll be a ticket into a well paid tech job, despite the fact that what they're learning wouldn't have got them through the door at an agency ten years ago, let alone today.
  - themodelplumber 9y ago
    It's one of many degrees offered but the one you're asking about is the bachelor's degree in web design and development, listed here: http://www.byui.edu/online/degrees-and-programs http://www.byui.edu/online/degrees-and-programs Reviewing the degree requirements and courses, and having studied CS at BYU myself, I'm betting the quality is very high. In fact I wish, as a web developer currently, that I could have taken some of these courses instead of courses like advanced algorithms; though fascinating, I'll bet I would have enjoyed a basic security course or a vector graphics course much more.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I've never heard of a job retraining program that did better than like 20% of the people going through it finding jobs that paid similarly to their old ones. Have you?

by ctoth 9y ago

themodelplumber 9y ago

Education is going to be absolutely crucial for those who are currently performing retail work. I recently attended training by my church on this topic and one of the key focii at present is helping people get the education they need in order to become self-reliant, in any way that works for them. This has never been emphasized to this degree in the past, and the initiatives have enlarged scope from developing nations only to now include the US and Canada. Bachelor's degrees in e.g. web development from an accredited private religious university are offered for around $8K; courses in starting businesses and improving job prospects are offered on demand, etc. It is clear that there is a lot of need right now and the impact of the changing flow of business is being felt heavily.

grogenaut 9y ago
What uni gives a batcuelors for $8k? Even though I'm not religious I'd send my kid there for that savings.
vkou 9y ago
This is great advice for particular people, but does not scale to the entire economy.
nickthemagicman 9y ago
One of Bernie Sanders major platforms was tuition free education. Politicians can talk about 'jobs' all they want, but the real key is education. Because jobs of the future will ALL require some highly technical skill.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Free education: People get a longer education => Jobs get more selective about education and require longer studies => People have to get a longer education to get a job => Jobs get even more selective => etc... Cheaper education will create more educated people, unfortunately that doesn't create new job prospects.
  - eveningcoffee 9y ago
    Free education does not mean that you get paid while studding. You still have to find means to clothe and feed yourself and find a roof above your head during the nights.
  - nickthemagicman 9y ago
    Well that's the way the knowledge economy works! It's based on your knowledge. So obvs people with more knowledge have better opportunities. It's how it works today except lots of people are left out. The difference is, with everyone educated, now you have a highly knowledgeable populace who are capable of solving harder problems, starting business to solve these problems, etc. I would rather have 1000 people working on Cancer research than at the DMV pushing paper or laying brick. Things machines can do. We would have a net improvement in people's lives and the human race. It's like a win win for everyone.
- vkou 9y ago
  Either that, or they will consist of housekeeping and gardening for the 1%.
- eigenman 9y ago
  Although tuition free education is a good answer, it won't work for everyone. There is a distribution of intelligence and skill; not everyone will be able to perform the remaining highly technical jobs. What should our society do with these people? Leave them on the streets? Provide welfare/basic income? This is a critical question because more education will not scale to 100% of the population.
mistermann 9y ago
Training in what though, everyone can't be a web developer? If everything is manufactured overseas or by robots, retail is largely locked up the a handful of giant corporations who can bankrupt competitors, in many places the former middle class spends all their disposable income on housing and can't afford new services, and the 1% largely don't spend their money. And on top of it, the utopia promised by diversity is actual splitting societies, right when we most need cooperation and unity. To me this is start to look like an near unsolvable problem.
- Moshe_Silnorin 9y ago
  A nice old-fashioned world war should solve it.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    If we keep pretending there's no problem, or hope these problem are going to solve themselves, we're going to end up with civil wars, at least.
    - godzillabrennus 9y ago
      America is already engaged in a "cold" civil war between the cities and the rural communities. The cultural and economic future of the nation is being legislated by the current victor. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
      - qubex 9y ago
        ”Cold Civil War” is the best term to describe and surmise the current predicament I've read so far in years of considering these problems. Is it your phrase?
        louprado 9y ago
        First use I could find is by John Derbyshire June 27, 2013 [1]. This is a powerful phrase that hopefully finds common usage. Perhaps we'd all have less contempt towards opposing views if we are reminded that violence occurs when contempt levels get too high. [1] http://takimag.com/article/the_cold_civil_war_grinds_on_john_derbyshire/print#ixzz4l2lQBlcE http://takimag.com/article/the_cold_civil_war_grinds_on_john...
Animats 9y ago
Education is going to be absolutely crucial for those who are currently performing retail work. It won't help. About half of new college graduates are doing jobs that don't require a college education. Those are the ones heavily in debt, with a negative return on investment for college.
- nine_k 9y ago
  Does this apply equally to STEM / medical / finance degrees, and e.g medieval history or social studies degrees?
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Only a handful of STEM degrees are really remunerative, and I don't think we can call putting everyone in a handful of engineering disciplines a serious solution.
stupidcar 9y ago
What kind of "web development" degrees are we talking about here? Because I see a lot of private universities and colleges taking ever penny from desperate people in exchange for teaching pretty basic IT skills. They're sold on the idea that if they know a bit about HTML and CSS it'll be a ticket into a well paid tech job, despite the fact that what they're learning wouldn't have got them through the door at an agency ten years ago, let alone today.
- themodelplumber 9y ago
  It's one of many degrees offered but the one you're asking about is the bachelor's degree in web design and development, listed here: http://www.byui.edu/online/degrees-and-programs http://www.byui.edu/online/degrees-and-programs Reviewing the degree requirements and courses, and having studied CS at BYU myself, I'm betting the quality is very high. In fact I wish, as a web developer currently, that I could have taken some of these courses instead of courses like advanced algorithms; though fascinating, I'll bet I would have enjoyed a basic security course or a vector graphics course much more.
emodendroket 9y ago
I've never heard of a job retraining program that did better than like 20% of the people going through it finding jobs that paid similarly to their old ones. Have you?