4 ms·

It doesn't help that a lot of it isn't illegal.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
Well, it's worse than that. Irrational belief systems are actually generally considered to be worthy of respect, which makes it culturally difficult to do something about the cases where the effects of those beliefs are extreme.
- ue_ 9y ago
  I personally respect them for if I did not respect them then it would be an affront to freedom. As much as the concept of "tolerance" is criticised (more recently from those people who, I think rightly, are tired of only being "tolerated") I think that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. I think the problem is when mockery of such systems is disallowed. I don't know about other religions, but the Buddhist approach has been to neither become prideful and puffed up when one congratulates one's religion, but not to lose one's temper or become sad when one criticises it. In the former case one should say "yes, you are right, well said". In the latter, one should say "no, you are wrong, here is why..." Unfortunately I can't find the citation in the Buddhist Pali Canon at the moment despite searching for what I thought were the keywords, though what I say is probably what one might expect from Buddhism.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
    > I personally respect them for if I did not respect them then it would be an affront to freedom. First, please distinguish respect for the person from respect for their beliefs. A person's beliefs (as long as those do not include the intent to harm others) should have no effect whatsoever on what rights they have, and on being accepted and treated as a human being equal to all other human beings in society. That is respect for the person. However, when a scientologist believes that Xenu's army dropped hydrogen bombs into vulcanoes in order to free the thetans from their bodies (or whatever exactly the story is, theology is not my expertise), there is absolutely no room for respect for that, it is bullshit and should be called out as just that. And there is one very important reason for that: Respect for those beliefs by society is one factor that keeps people trapped in these belief systems, which is very much the opposite of freedom. There are more than enough people who will tell you that they wished someone had shown them earlier how ridiculous and irrational the beliefs they were indoctrinated into were instead of validating it by pretending it was worthy of respect, because they could have started earlier to live a life free from a completely irrational fear of hell, for example. Respecting ideas that suppress people's free development does not contribute to freedom. > I think the problem is when mockery of such systems is disallowed. Well, yeah, but that is directly interlinked with the idea of respect for irrational belief systems. Mocking something is inherently not respecting the thing.
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    >As much as the concept of "tolerance" is criticised (more recently from those people who, I think rightly, are tired of only being "tolerated") I think that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. In my mind, respect is something that's earned rather than expected. People should be able to believe whatever they want, but as soon as it affects anything they do, any such "respect" becomes counterproductive. E.g. respecting anti-vaxxer beliefs, how would that even work? Would you rather be in a crisis situation with a person who will pray for your well-being instead of actually helping you when it's needed?
dsr_ 9y ago
Right/wrong and legal/illegal are only related to each other, not identical. The difference between informed voluntary weird behavior and non-informed compelled behavior is not necessarily obvious. Consider the boot-camp experience of joining the armed forces: is it right? Is it legal? Is it different in kind or degree from a cult indoctrination?

Well, it's worse than that. Irrational belief systems are actually generally considered to be worthy of respect, which makes it culturally difficult to do something about the cases where the effects of those beliefs are extreme.

ue_ 9y ago
I personally respect them for if I did not respect them then it would be an affront to freedom. As much as the concept of "tolerance" is criticised (more recently from those people who, I think rightly, are tired of only being "tolerated") I think that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. I think the problem is when mockery of such systems is disallowed. I don't know about other religions, but the Buddhist approach has been to neither become prideful and puffed up when one congratulates one's religion, but not to lose one's temper or become sad when one criticises it. In the former case one should say "yes, you are right, well said". In the latter, one should say "no, you are wrong, here is why..." Unfortunately I can't find the citation in the Buddhist Pali Canon at the moment despite searching for what I thought were the keywords, though what I say is probably what one might expect from Buddhism.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > I personally respect them for if I did not respect them then it would be an affront to freedom. First, please distinguish respect for the person from respect for their beliefs. A person's beliefs (as long as those do not include the intent to harm others) should have no effect whatsoever on what rights they have, and on being accepted and treated as a human being equal to all other human beings in society. That is respect for the person. However, when a scientologist believes that Xenu's army dropped hydrogen bombs into vulcanoes in order to free the thetans from their bodies (or whatever exactly the story is, theology is not my expertise), there is absolutely no room for respect for that, it is bullshit and should be called out as just that. And there is one very important reason for that: Respect for those beliefs by society is one factor that keeps people trapped in these belief systems, which is very much the opposite of freedom. There are more than enough people who will tell you that they wished someone had shown them earlier how ridiculous and irrational the beliefs they were indoctrinated into were instead of validating it by pretending it was worthy of respect, because they could have started earlier to live a life free from a completely irrational fear of hell, for example. Respecting ideas that suppress people's free development does not contribute to freedom. > I think the problem is when mockery of such systems is disallowed. Well, yeah, but that is directly interlinked with the idea of respect for irrational belief systems. Mocking something is inherently not respecting the thing.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  >As much as the concept of "tolerance" is criticised (more recently from those people who, I think rightly, are tired of only being "tolerated") I think that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. In my mind, respect is something that's earned rather than expected. People should be able to believe whatever they want, but as soon as it affects anything they do, any such "respect" becomes counterproductive. E.g. respecting anti-vaxxer beliefs, how would that even work? Would you rather be in a crisis situation with a person who will pray for your well-being instead of actually helping you when it's needed?

dsr_ 9y ago

Right/wrong and legal/illegal are only related to each other, not identical. The difference between informed voluntary weird behavior and non-informed compelled behavior is not necessarily obvious. Consider the boot-camp experience of joining the armed forces: is it right? Is it legal? Is it different in kind or degree from a cult indoctrination?