4 ms·

At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs? A huge cost advantage that NAI enjoys on many of their international flights is through a flag-of-conve

At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs? A huge cost advantage that NAI enjoys on many of their international flights is through a flag-of-convenience scheme. NAI is a Norwegian majority owned company but has established their base of operations for international flying in Ireland. Through this arrangement they are able to hire pilots and cabin crews under contracts and work rules of southeast Asia where wages are low and work rules are less restrictive. You might imagine how cutting costs in that regard might have an impact on quality of service and more importantly SAFETY. If this precedent is allowed there is no doubt the major American airlines will do the same in the interest of remaining competitive but shockingly airlines in the US have actually resisted this in the interest of the jobs of American people. I can't speak to each airline individually but for example Delta Air Lines directly employs 80,000 people in addition to 10s of thousands of contractors. Multiply that by 3 or 4 and you're looking at a ton of well paying American jobs. Not to mention when is the last time you remember a fatality on a major US airline? I think the flag-of-convenience scheme leads us down a slippery slope where getting the lowest bidding pilot cadets trumps safety.

davidf18 9y ago
> "At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs?" When I fly to Israel with a layover in Istanbul to visit friends in Istanbul, I am using Turkish pilots, thus depriving Americans of jobs. They are lower cost than many European pilots. Are you saying I shouldn't be flying Turkish Air? I don't understand? Incidentally, the flights from NYC to Istanbul use very modern planes and are staffed with very friendly staff. Direct flights to Israel on El Al use Israeli pilots whom I guessing don't get paid as much as their American counterparts and yet, highly trained as probably almost all of them were in the Israeli Air Force. So, please explain your position. I am concerned with safety and in fact part my work deals with safety in healthcare. Airlines landing in US airports should be following FAA regulations. It is important that the FAA regulate this. I encourage US domestic carriers to change the way they operate so that they can match the Norwegian fares while retaining American jobs. But to complain that Norwegian is offering fares that make Europe more accessible for people with fixed or limited income is just wrong.
- _acme 9y ago
  How would you "encourage US domestic carriers to change the way they operate so that they can match the Norwegian fares while retaining American jobs." I think the point is that that is impossible.
  - davidf18 9y ago
    I don't agree. The consolidation of major carriers under Obama administration (United buying Continental, and American buying US Air) has reduced competition and thus higher fares, worse service. They don't fly out of regional airports at least in NYC I think that is rare. I"ll bet there are a lot of operational issues. Delta, United and others own low-cost carriers (the famous United case where the senior was dragged off the plane screaming and kicking was not on United but a low cost fully owned subsidiary carrier of United) as it is, so they could have a low-cost carrier that travels to Europe. These low-cost wholly owned carriers are domestic only. But none of them have them because they want to cannibalize the higher fares charged. They enjoy their margins. Norwegian (like Amazon, like Uber) is in a contest to capture market share and thus may be willing to operate on thin margins or even take a short term loss to capture share. The major American carriers may not want to invest the money to retain share and prefer to use politics instead.
    - saryant 9y ago
      > the famous United case where the senior was dragged off the plane screaming and kicking was not on United but a low cost fully owned subsidiary carrier of United United does not own Republic Airways and they are not a subsidiary of United Continental Holdings (United's parent). Republic is its own airline operating flights under contract for United, Delta and American. The legacies by and large do not own the regional carriers, nor are those airlines intended to be low-cost carriers. The differences primarily lie in the aircraft operated and result from union contracts that inhibit the legacies from profitably operating smaller (non-mainline) aircraft.
      - davidf18 9y ago
prostoalex 9y ago
> At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs? Are they high-paying because of the time and effort it takes to procure necessary skills (anesthesiologists) or are they high-paying through artificial throttling of the supply and monopolistic anti-competitive practices (taxi medallions)? One is the boon to the economy, another one is rent-seeking and employs a broken window fallacy to justify itself. > I think the flag-of-convenience scheme leads us down a slippery slope where getting the lowest bidding pilot cadets trumps safety. So far pilot safety has been associated with the number of hours flown, not the specific rates one was paid for those hours. If somebody proves that, given the same number of hours flown, a higher-paid pilot produces more safety per capita, FAA regulations for acquiring the commercial/ATP licenses can be modified accordingly. Moreover, things are not all rainbows and unicorns in the airline world, especially once you start drilling into those "contractors" you mentioned http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/pilots-can-earn-less-airport-window-washers-12398 http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/pilots-can-earn-less-...
- bronco21016 9y ago
  Jobs at major airlines are high paying because of the high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills necessary for the job. A new pilot can expect to spend at least $150,000-200,000 at a 4 year program largely due to the expense needed to gain those hours you mention that make him or her safer. Once that's done you'll spend at least a couple thousand hours working to get experience in low paying jobs like those explained in the article you linked. All of this experience is necessary to get those high paying jobs ($200,000+ within a few years) at a major carrier to make the pay off worth it. The major airlines are paying high wages to attract the best, most experienced pilots in the world. There is definitely no rent-seeking in this employment market.
  - prostoalex 9y ago
    > Jobs at major airlines are high paying because of the high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills necessary for the job. An ATP license for a major airline is no different than an ATP license for Bob's Discount Airlines, so the costs of obtaining either one are the same. Airlines (or in the US, their unions, who usually govern this) generally promote on seniority, which does relate to the number of hours flown, but considering it's the hours that are flown on the job, it's airline's investment at that point. In reality, though, jobs at major airlines pay well for senior pilots because the unions for major airlines are run by senior pilots, who see no problem in negotiating a payscale with significant income inequality between junior and senior levels. I'd urge you to read Philip Greenspun's "Unions and Airlines" to understand the way the industry is structured in the US http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines > The major airlines are paying high wages to attract the best, most experienced pilots in the world. If they were, senior pilots from United would be jumping ship for better compensation packages with Delta, and then American would have to raise the stakes to attract the best and the brightest. But a senior pilot at United will have to restart as a junior pilot with Delta, all that "high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills" be damned.

davidf18 9y ago

> "At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs?" When I fly to Israel with a layover in Istanbul to visit friends in Istanbul, I am using Turkish pilots, thus depriving Americans of jobs. They are lower cost than many European pilots. Are you saying I shouldn't be flying Turkish Air? I don't understand? Incidentally, the flights from NYC to Istanbul use very modern planes and are staffed with very friendly staff. Direct flights to Israel on El Al use Israeli pilots whom I guessing don't get paid as much as their American counterparts and yet, highly trained as probably almost all of them were in the Israeli Air Force. So, please explain your position. I am concerned with safety and in fact part my work deals with safety in healthcare. Airlines landing in US airports should be following FAA regulations. It is important that the FAA regulate this. I encourage US domestic carriers to change the way they operate so that they can match the Norwegian fares while retaining American jobs. But to complain that Norwegian is offering fares that make Europe more accessible for people with fixed or limited income is just wrong.

_acme 9y ago
How would you "encourage US domestic carriers to change the way they operate so that they can match the Norwegian fares while retaining American jobs." I think the point is that that is impossible.
- davidf18 9y ago
  I don't agree. The consolidation of major carriers under Obama administration (United buying Continental, and American buying US Air) has reduced competition and thus higher fares, worse service. They don't fly out of regional airports at least in NYC I think that is rare. I"ll bet there are a lot of operational issues. Delta, United and others own low-cost carriers (the famous United case where the senior was dragged off the plane screaming and kicking was not on United but a low cost fully owned subsidiary carrier of United) as it is, so they could have a low-cost carrier that travels to Europe. These low-cost wholly owned carriers are domestic only. But none of them have them because they want to cannibalize the higher fares charged. They enjoy their margins. Norwegian (like Amazon, like Uber) is in a contest to capture market share and thus may be willing to operate on thin margins or even take a short term loss to capture share. The major American carriers may not want to invest the money to retain share and prefer to use politics instead.
  - saryant 9y ago
    > the famous United case where the senior was dragged off the plane screaming and kicking was not on United but a low cost fully owned subsidiary carrier of United United does not own Republic Airways and they are not a subsidiary of United Continental Holdings (United's parent). Republic is its own airline operating flights under contract for United, Delta and American. The legacies by and large do not own the regional carriers, nor are those airlines intended to be low-cost carriers. The differences primarily lie in the aircraft operated and result from union contracts that inhibit the legacies from profitably operating smaller (non-mainline) aircraft.
    - davidf18 9y ago

prostoalex 9y ago

> At what expense of high paying, quality, American jobs? Are they high-paying because of the time and effort it takes to procure necessary skills (anesthesiologists) or are they high-paying through artificial throttling of the supply and monopolistic anti-competitive practices (taxi medallions)? One is the boon to the economy, another one is rent-seeking and employs a broken window fallacy to justify itself. > I think the flag-of-convenience scheme leads us down a slippery slope where getting the lowest bidding pilot cadets trumps safety. So far pilot safety has been associated with the number of hours flown, not the specific rates one was paid for those hours. If somebody proves that, given the same number of hours flown, a higher-paid pilot produces more safety per capita, FAA regulations for acquiring the commercial/ATP licenses can be modified accordingly. Moreover, things are not all rainbows and unicorns in the airline world, especially once you start drilling into those "contractors" you mentioned http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/pilots-can-earn-less-airport-window-washers-12398 http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/pilots-can-earn-less-...

bronco21016 9y ago
Jobs at major airlines are high paying because of the high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills necessary for the job. A new pilot can expect to spend at least $150,000-200,000 at a 4 year program largely due to the expense needed to gain those hours you mention that make him or her safer. Once that's done you'll spend at least a couple thousand hours working to get experience in low paying jobs like those explained in the article you linked. All of this experience is necessary to get those high paying jobs ($200,000+ within a few years) at a major carrier to make the pay off worth it. The major airlines are paying high wages to attract the best, most experienced pilots in the world. There is definitely no rent-seeking in this employment market.
- prostoalex 9y ago
  > Jobs at major airlines are high paying because of the high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills necessary for the job. An ATP license for a major airline is no different than an ATP license for Bob's Discount Airlines, so the costs of obtaining either one are the same. Airlines (or in the US, their unions, who usually govern this) generally promote on seniority, which does relate to the number of hours flown, but considering it's the hours that are flown on the job, it's airline's investment at that point. In reality, though, jobs at major airlines pay well for senior pilots because the unions for major airlines are run by senior pilots, who see no problem in negotiating a payscale with significant income inequality between junior and senior levels. I'd urge you to read Philip Greenspun's "Unions and Airlines" to understand the way the industry is structured in the US http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines > The major airlines are paying high wages to attract the best, most experienced pilots in the world. If they were, senior pilots from United would be jumping ship for better compensation packages with Delta, and then American would have to raise the stakes to attract the best and the brightest. But a senior pilot at United will have to restart as a junior pilot with Delta, all that "high cost of time, effort, and dollars necessary to procure the skills" be damned.