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> Hospitals alone kill close to 100,000 Americans alone each year. > 2) Modern medicine consists of prescribing drugs, or high risk surgeries. Paralysis for li

by E6300 9y ago

> Hospitals alone kill close to 100,000 Americans alone each year. > 2) Modern medicine consists of prescribing drugs, or high risk surgeries. Paralysis for life is a real risk. This is reminiscent of the arguments used by creationists. "Creationism isn't bullshit! Look at all the flaws in evolution!" > 1) Personal experience. There's people who use homeopathy who swear by it. That doesn't make homeopathy any more legitimate.

dnh44 9y ago
No but placebo is real and what's wrong with people trying to induce placebo to help themselves?
- E6300 9y ago
  Placebos don't help. At best they provide temporary relief; on some people they don't even work. A placebo is like you car engine making a funny noise and the mechanic telling you to turn the stereo up so you won't hear it. Or, to make the analogy more appropriate, it's like the mechanic telling to come back twice a week so he'll turn the stereo on for you, while charging you $10 each time. Meanwhile the shop across the street charges $100 but actually takes a look at your engine.
  - dnh44 9y ago
    If you look into the placebo effect you'll see that you're wrong and that it's a real phenomena.
    - E6300 9y ago
      I didn't say it's not a real phenomenon. I said it doesn't help.
      - dnh44 9y ago
        How can it be real if it doesn't help? Placebo does sometimes work which is why it's amazing and has people looking into the role of the brain in healing. In fact if placebo didn't work then it would be pointless to use it in clinical trials for new drugs.
        E6300 9y ago
        The effect of heroin is real, and it won't help if you have, say, a bacterial infection. If you have for example a nerve caught in a joint, a placebo may make you believe you're getting better and eliminate the pain of a while, same as an analgesic, but the nerve will still be caught in that joint. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't help. It doesn't actually make the ailment go away. Sometimes the ailment will go away on it own while the patient is under the placebo effect, but that's not the same as the placebo actually doing anything. > In fact if placebo didn't work then it would be pointless to use it in clinical trials for new drugs. You do realize that a drug being found to have an effectiveness at treating X equal to placebo is considered a failure, right? It means the drug has no effect on X, positive or negative. That's one of the reasons homeopathy is considered bullshit (the other being that its founding principles are false), that on clinical trials it's been found time and again to be as effective as a placebo.
        dnh44 9y ago
        Yes that's exactly the point! If a drug is only as effective as placebo then it's a failure. That's exactly why they don't just compare the drug to the control group who doesn't get any medication at all! In a hypothetical but semi-realistic case let's say 300 people are taking part in a trial. 100 will be the control group that gets nothing. Maybe 20 people will get better on their own. Next is the placebo group, who think they are getting some awesome new meds. Out of 100 people maybe 40 will get better on their own. Next is the group that actually gets the medication. Now if only 40 out of 100 get better than they know the medicine is no better than placebo and doesn't actually do anything. Notice that if there wasn't a placebo group people would assume that the drug actually helps people because it performs better than the control group. You seem to be confusing placebo with someone randomly getting better (the 20% of the control group). The whole idea of placebo is that you're more likely to "randomly get better" when you think you're going to get better (the 40% compared to the 20%). The implications of this is that somehow the brain is involved in healing the body.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dnh44 9y ago
    A more accurate car analogy would be to take 3 race car drivers trying to improve their lap times around the Nürburgring. You tell two of them they will be getting special tyres that allow them to go faster, but you only actually give special tyres to one of the two. The driver who gets the special tyres improves their performance, while the control driver performs as usual. The placebo effect is when the driver who thinks he has the special tyres improves his time even though he hasn't received any special tyres.

by E6300 9y ago

dnh44 9y ago

No but placebo is real and what's wrong with people trying to induce placebo to help themselves?

E6300 9y ago
Placebos don't help. At best they provide temporary relief; on some people they don't even work. A placebo is like you car engine making a funny noise and the mechanic telling you to turn the stereo up so you won't hear it. Or, to make the analogy more appropriate, it's like the mechanic telling to come back twice a week so he'll turn the stereo on for you, while charging you $10 each time. Meanwhile the shop across the street charges $100 but actually takes a look at your engine.
- dnh44 9y ago
  If you look into the placebo effect you'll see that you're wrong and that it's a real phenomena.
  - E6300 9y ago
    I didn't say it's not a real phenomenon. I said it doesn't help.
    - dnh44 9y ago
      How can it be real if it doesn't help? Placebo does sometimes work which is why it's amazing and has people looking into the role of the brain in healing. In fact if placebo didn't work then it would be pointless to use it in clinical trials for new drugs.
      - E6300 9y ago
        The effect of heroin is real, and it won't help if you have, say, a bacterial infection. If you have for example a nerve caught in a joint, a placebo may make you believe you're getting better and eliminate the pain of a while, same as an analgesic, but the nerve will still be caught in that joint. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't help. It doesn't actually make the ailment go away. Sometimes the ailment will go away on it own while the patient is under the placebo effect, but that's not the same as the placebo actually doing anything. > In fact if placebo didn't work then it would be pointless to use it in clinical trials for new drugs. You do realize that a drug being found to have an effectiveness at treating X equal to placebo is considered a failure, right? It means the drug has no effect on X, positive or negative. That's one of the reasons homeopathy is considered bullshit (the other being that its founding principles are false), that on clinical trials it's been found time and again to be as effective as a placebo.
        dnh44 9y ago
        Yes that's exactly the point! If a drug is only as effective as placebo then it's a failure. That's exactly why they don't just compare the drug to the control group who doesn't get any medication at all! In a hypothetical but semi-realistic case let's say 300 people are taking part in a trial. 100 will be the control group that gets nothing. Maybe 20 people will get better on their own. Next is the placebo group, who think they are getting some awesome new meds. Out of 100 people maybe 40 will get better on their own. Next is the group that actually gets the medication. Now if only 40 out of 100 get better than they know the medicine is no better than placebo and doesn't actually do anything. Notice that if there wasn't a placebo group people would assume that the drug actually helps people because it performs better than the control group. You seem to be confusing placebo with someone randomly getting better (the 20% of the control group). The whole idea of placebo is that you're more likely to "randomly get better" when you think you're going to get better (the 40% compared to the 20%). The implications of this is that somehow the brain is involved in healing the body.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dnh44 9y ago
  A more accurate car analogy would be to take 3 race car drivers trying to improve their lap times around the Nürburgring. You tell two of them they will be getting special tyres that allow them to go faster, but you only actually give special tyres to one of the two. The driver who gets the special tyres improves their performance, while the control driver performs as usual. The placebo effect is when the driver who thinks he has the special tyres improves his time even though he hasn't received any special tyres.