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Chiropractors are bullshit

87 points by Sujan 9y ago

bluedino 9y ago
Are the okay to go to for back problems?
- Geimfari 9y ago
  It is not recommended. It is recommended to visit a physical therapist, who will treat you using research-based methods.
  - CuriouslyC 9y ago
    I just want to chime in here that physical therapy research is usually not very good. Thus that "backed by science" guarantee isn't so strong. The truth is, when it comes to myofascial pain, nobody really understands what is going on. Empirical techniques (such as ART and Graston) can get results superior to those achieved by standard physical therapy.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  Yes. Find a good chiro and you're fine.
andreasgonewild 9y ago
The proven medicine of vaccines? Of injecting viruses and toxic substances into the bloodstream of healthy humans? Why not draw some blood while you're at it? To let out the evil spirits or whatever they used to tell people back then. Just earlier today someone was debunking the dangers of sugar and the advantages of natural, unprocessed food. Just one of those days, I guess. Truth is that if you have a problem with nerves being jammed between bones, or bones being out of alignment; a competent chiropractor might be exactly what you need. Ask around for references to find the good ones, there's nothing like personal experience of trusted individuals when searching for truth. Not that they would ever tell you in the hospital; they'll just radiate you, shoot you full of poison and send you back home to get sicker and deeper into debt. Scientific fundamentalism is just as stupid and dangerous as any other kind of fundamentalism; we were given brains to think, not to believe the most popular authority of the day. This article goes on about the profit motive of chiropractors, which doesn't even show up in statistics compared to that of our medical authorities.
pfarnsworth 9y ago
No it is not bullshit, not for back problems. I hurt my back and was suffering for 2 years. I went to a physiotherapist and they made me do stretches and other exercises. I took Advil and aleve and both eventually stopped working. It was debilitating and I desperation I went to a chiropractor. I am a huge skeptic and thought chiropractors were scams too but I was desperate. Within 6 weeks the pain disappeared permanently. This was over 10 years ago. Occsssionally i will tweak my back from carrying my kids on my back and I will go for s few sessions and I feel great afterwards. It's not bullshit, at least for back problems. Some chiros say it cures colds etc which is bullshit. You just need to find a chiro that doesn't deal with that stuff.
- obstinate 9y ago
  You know that thing about anecdotes. There are a lot of explanations for your situation getting better concurrently with chiro, but not because of chiro. For example, regression to the mean, placebo effect, etc. That said, I had been under the impression that chiro is about as effective for lower back pain as evidence-based physical therapy. But that doesn't mean it is effective. It could equally well mean that we don't know of many good treatments for lower back pain, and thus that physical therapy is only good as a placebo (chiropractic).
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    When you hurt your back then come back and respond. There's nothing worse than an armchair expert googling Wikipedia for their "knowledge".
    - obstinate 9y ago
      Even if I did, it would still be an anecdote. It would prove nothing either way. For that we have to look to data.
      - pfarnsworth 9y ago
        ya I take this back
throwaway198411 9y ago
vile post
abatilo 9y ago
This generalization is insane. I don't go to chiropractors regularly, and my situation was clearly be anecdotal, but there was one afternoon where any movement in my back caused me extreme pain. I scheduled a body massage to try to alleviate at least some of the pain but when I went it didn't help. Then my fiance suggested trying a chiropractor and I walked in, explained my pain, and in about 30 seconds it was all gone. I know there are skeezy chiropractors as well because I have a friend who worked for those kinds of people who swore they could cure anything. That's bull shit. But this article is a gross over generalization of a practice. The chiropractor I went to didn't try to sell me anything afterwards, he didn't promise any mirale weight loss, I just explained my pain and he fixed it. I respect that.
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  You should read up on the placebo effect. edit: Just to clarify, there is no scientific evidence that chiro is effective as anything other than placebo. All evidence provided is anecdotal and hence useless.
  - tonyarkles 9y ago
    Could very well have been a pinched nerve or super tight muscle that needed to be tweaked a certain way to release. I've been there, although didn't see a chiropractor to fix it. I say this as a long time skeptic of chiropractic; my dad, in fact, had a terrible moment in his youth where he had lower body paralysis for 2 days after a chirp visit... My partner has ahhh unusual wrist physiology and when we moved to a new city (near where she grew up), she wanted to go visit her old chiropractor to get her wrist looked at (the same guy had looked at it 30 years ago). I bit my tongue and didn't say anything. His advice: you need to get X-rays and I'll schedule you to see a (mainstream MD) specialist. I'm still skeptical, but it gives me a little faith that in spite of whatever quackery exists, some of them do at least recognize problems that are the domain of conventional medicine.
  - idanman 9y ago
    OK. So let's say it is the placebo effect. You can pay $50 for a massage that will manage your pain or better yet get rid of it or you can pay 100's of dollars and your insurance 1000's to be relieved of the pain with pain killers and medicine you don't need. For my money I'll choose the $50 and if it doesn't work then I'll consider other treatment options. Its seems hospitals are starting to wise up to this too. Here is Rutgers University Hospital Pain Management Center for example: "We also refer patients for alternative techniques such as acupuncture, chiropractic care, bio-feedback, and self-hypnosis." http://njms.rutgers.edu/departments/anesthesiology/pain_center.cfm http://njms.rutgers.edu/departments/anesthesiology/pain_cent...
kenbaylor 9y ago
Totally not bullshit. Hospitals alone kill close to 100,000 Americans alone each year. https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical... Chiropractors are good: 1) Personal experience. They have helped my spine recover multiple times, in record recovery time. 2) Modern medicine consists of prescribing drugs, or high risk surgeries. Paralysis for life is a real risk. 3) If you get a great one, they will add years of pain-free time for your life Chiropractors are also bad: a) There are some 'religious schools' founded by 'bodies for Christ' aka Maximized Living that make some interesting claims. Unfortunately these are becoming common b) many new chiropractors have poor technique. This often goes back to the previous point. c) Unless the person is really good don't let them mess with your neck. There is a growing link between neck manipulation and strokes, especially when 'fast techniques' are involved. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Deanna_Rothwell/publication/11997403_Chiropractic_manipulation_and_stroke_A_population-based_case-control_study/links/540d21960cf2d8daaacaefaa.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Deanna_Rothwell/publica... TLDR; This doesn't mean that Chiropractors are bad. There are many many great ones and it really works. There are many quacks who drink the cool aid. They are mostly new graduates. Modern medicine's approach to back and neck pain is utterly subpar and medieval. There are many quacks there too, and they kill a lot more every year. And the medical community also disavowed Surgery as 'quackery' not too long ago: http://mentalfloss.com/article/66664/how-uneducated-butchers-and-barbers-became-todays-skilled-surgeons http://mentalfloss.com/article/66664/how-uneducated-butchers...
- awinder 9y ago
  I don’t know what the more common treatment paths are but im fairly sure that the first line treatment path from modern medicine is working with a physical therapist, not surgery.
  - kenbaylor 9y ago
    Depends where you are located. First line for me was pain killers. Then injections of pain killers, then chymopapain. Then surgery. My doctors did not 'believe in' physical therapy by non-doctors.
0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Just to be clear, the fact that someone bills themselves as a chiropractor doesn't mean that they exclusively offer chiropractic "treatments". Some offer quasi-legitimate physiotherapy-like treatment, advice on lifestyle modification, and guidance on over-the-counter drugs. Any of which might end up being useless or harmful depending on how knowledgeable and sensible a given chiropractor is. But the extent to which they do this corresponds pretty closely to how much they deviate from chiropractic theory and accept proven understandings of physiology.
closed 9y ago
This made me curious about its effectiveness for back pain, so I tried to find a meta-analysis. Turned up this on plos one. (note, I can't speak for the article's quality). > Moderate evidence suggests that chiropractic care for LBP appears to be equally effective as physical therapy. Limited evidence suggests the same conclusion when chiropractic care is compared to exercise therapy and medical care although no firm conclusion can be reached at this time. No serious adverse events were reported for any type of care. Our review was also unable to clarify whether chiropractic or medical care is more cost-effective. Given the limited available evidence, the decision to seek or to refer patients for chiropractic care should be based on patient preference and values. Future studies are likely to have an important impact on our estimates as these were based on only a few admissible studies. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0160037 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
- arkades 9y ago
  Standard of care for LBP is almost entirely ineffective. So... no surprises that chiropractic meets that standard.
  - themantalope 9y ago
    The current recommendation for LBP is to not treat, unless they have long-standing radiculopathy.
  - closed 9y ago
    That's part of what made me curious about LBP+chiropractic research! Pretty wild.
comstock 9y ago
This article is pretty long, a lot of it is interesting, but quite a lot is redundant. All I would really want to see is a summary of a study showing that chiropractors don't reduce pain. But if even a like to such a study is there, I didn't see it.
- DougN7 9y ago
  My chiropractor never reduced my pain, but he did point out what was wrong with my posture, which I corrected myself, and am now pain free. So I'm grateful for that and don't feel bad about the money spent on treatments. Having said that, a buddy is a chiropractor and the BS he believes...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
BooneJS 9y ago
Sample size 1 observations: I've been going to chiropractors off and on for a few years. I started with a lower back injury, saw my primary care physician, went to PT, and after a few visits she recommended seeing a chiropractor. It took a while before I found a chiropractor I was comfortable with. Most over-promised and had a ton of halo-effect services they constantly pushed. I found one that also offered massage and didn't try to upsell any of their other services and I found that combination worked for me. After I moved, I stopped the massage part. I stopped the chiropractor part. But the back pain hit me again in a big way. I've found that in times of high stress like I experienced several weeks ago an adjustment lasts for 1-2 days tops before it returns. My current guess based on this slightly-sensational article is that the massages help prevent muscles from messing with the entire system, so that's something I'll need to try.
- aisofteng 9y ago
  Deadlifting and squatting regularly has eliminated my lower back pain.
  - BooneJS 9y ago
    I'll give that a shot as well. Sounds like I'll need some equipment to do that.
    - aisofteng 9y ago
      If you've had lower back injury, I strongly suggest you ask a medical professional first. In my case, it was muscle pain, which was alleviated (apparently) by making those muscles stronger. I did not have an actual injury; weight lifting after an injury can cause serious damage. If you do find it reasonable to try, a gym membership would be best, for at least a few months, and a couple sessions with a trainer. Poor form with these exercises can also lead to damage.
Tharkun 9y ago
I've never seen so many downvoted top level comments. Is the term "chiropractor" what's causing the problem in this discussion? Can anyone call themselves a chiropractor where the author of this article is based? It seems like it's a protected title in many European countries. In Norway & Denmark for instance the title can only be granted by studying medicine. Over there chiropractors can prescribe MRIs and some drugs. It looks like some folks in this thread are talking about quacks who brute force your back into oblivion, whereas others are talking about physical therapy spinal manipulation. I'm assuming these are not the same thing?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- gnicholas 9y ago
  In the US, it is not as regulated. My sense, from having tried chiro on several occasions is that they do quasi-medical things like x-rays when you first go in, to give the sense that they are on par with medical doctors. But the diagnosis is always the same — subluxation of the spine. That said, and even in spite of my strong skepticism toward their practice, I have to say that it was the only thing that helped my periodic extreme back pain. I had tried a medical doctor, physical therapist, and massage. Chiro provided immediate and near-complete relief. They tried to get me to come in 3x weekly for months (basically maxing out my insurance contribution), but I only ever needed 2-3 visits to feel 100%.
virtualwhys 9y ago
While I've never realized Nirvana through my chiropractic experiences, they have been immensely helpful in the short-term. For example, several years ago I spent the winter on the north shore of Oahu (Hawaii) surfing. The waves are often perfect and glassy, but pack a serious punch when you fall. I took a heavy wipeout, which left me as stiff necked as I've ever been. For a few days I could barely move my head from left to right. I needed to do something, so went to a chriropractor. The chiropractor had seen the surfer's whiplash injury many times before; after some light warmup massage work to loosen up the muscles, a quick jerking of the head, and crack!!, done. All the tension gone in an instant. Walked out a new man, was back in the water the next day. Less extreme, as a computer worker I often find myself in strange/unhealthy positions while consumed with solving yet another problem. This leaves my back not feeling all that great. So, 3 or 4 times a year I go to a chiropractor I know (in Montreal) and get an adjustment. While there's no permanent realignment, there is most definitely a temporary one, which feels great. I'd say it depends on the chiropractor (YMMV), and not that the profession as a whole is a hoax.
- Para2016 9y ago
  >a quick jerking of the head Please don't ever let anyone do that again. The two vertebral arteries that supply blood to your posterior brain (occipital lobe, cerebellum, medulla, pons) are encased in your cervical/neck vertebrae transverse processes. Quick manipulation of your neck with a "jerk" can injure these arteries and lead to dissection and infarct of your brain with permanent loss of function or it can even kill you. I've survived a vertebral dissection caused by neck manipulation which lead to permanent loss of vision. A dissection is injury to the inner lining of a blood vessel leading to clot formation over the tear. The clot can entirely obstruct the lumen of the vessel or parts can break off and obstruct downstream vessels leading to infarct. Please don't let anyone manipulate your neck in the future.
  - gnicholas 9y ago
    I asked my (medical) doctor about the safety risks of chiropractic adjustment, and he said there are rare cases of permanent injury from neck adjustments. He said it was less than 1/1000, but enough to be worried about. I have found that whenever I (infrequently) go in for lower back pain, the chiro always goes up the back and neck also — especially if his attempts at adjustment lower down were not successful. I always have to remind him beforehand that I do not want my neck manipulated.
lwlml 9y ago
N=1 situation: Found that drinking more water helped the joints of my back ease and reduced lower-back-pain. After that, you need to do functional movements and lift-heavy-things, often. Not too heavy, but enough to prompt your body to improve its capabilities.
dragonwriter 9y ago
There's evidence that chiropractic is effective in certain domains, the problem is that the scope of practice of chiropractic is not limited to those domains. It's essentially pseudoscientific alternative medicine that has since had utility confirmed in some areas. But then, so is much actual medicine, the problem is that quackery remains more pervasive in churopractic. You can find chiros that aren't quacks, though; it's not like homeopathy.
Phlow 9y ago
I'd like to see a study of the correlation between people that believe Chiropractics is bullshit and people that believe climate change isn't real. Seriously, if you've ever been to a chiropractor for back and neck related problems, you know that it's at the VERY LEAST not bullshit. Claiming it's all just quack science is completely ignorant. I do know that chiropractors have long struggled to keep clientele, because people come when they're hurting, and stop coming when they feel better. So, some chiropractors have taken to questionable methods to keep people coming back. The ones on the up-and-up will, quite correctly, tell you that just cracking your back isn't going to fix your problem, and that you need to do strengthening exercises of the core muscles that keep your bones in the correct spots, and to fix your posture problems.
- EpicEng 9y ago
  I went to a chiro for neck and shoulder pain regularly for a couple of months. I felt nominally better for a couple of hours after each session, but then the problem came right back. They also told me to stretch, which was obvious. Took a trip to a doctor and got a useful diagnosis at the first visit. So I would say no, going to a chiro does not prove it to be more than complete BS. They stretched out my tight muscles/tendons which gave me minor temporary relief. Woohoo.
  - Phlow 9y ago
    Well, how many people go to doctors and get no useful information or solutions to their problems? Tons. It doesn't follow that doctors are bullshit. (And I would argue that a couple hours of nominally feeling better is more than those people get from a doctor visit, but I digress) If your problems are spine/neck/etc related, having yourself adjusted will provide relief, and strengthening, stretching and maintaining good posture habits will help keep those things from recurring. And, of course, as you age, the body breaks down... there's only so much that can be corrected. I will say, strengthening my core made the most difference in my spine/neck pain. Heavy weight squats, push ups, planks, etc.
    - EpicEng 9y ago
justinclift 9y ago
Hmmm, the author doesn't seem to realise there are several different branches/systems/approaches of "chiropractors". The bone cracking ones which the author seems to be familiar with I'd personally agree. There is a system called NeuroLink though which (in personal experience for several years) does work: http://www.neurolinkglobal.com http://www.neurolinkglobal.com No bone cracking required. :)
err4nt 9y ago
Just my 2¢ as a migraine sufferer - although I am wary about getting adjusted (I fear having too many adjustments would increase the frequency at which I need adjustments) on more than one occasion, while suffering tremendously with migraine I've had chiropractors be able to make an adjustment that stops the migraine like flipping a light switch. (A $40 light switch lol). For me, this enabled me to drive home from the city where I was visiting (I was there every week on business and a migraine would have left me stranded unable to drive home, for hours) So just be aware that there are real cases where chiropractic, though expensive, can be insanely (and immediately) effective! There's no room for doubt in my experience, just what would be a potentially expensive habit if I kept going.
influnza 9y ago
I visited a chiropractor in Denmark. It was manual therapy, the doctors were knowledgeable and used massage and acupuncture in addition to "breaking bones" - all was very relieving and made a lot of sense. The one here in the US I did not trust. I looked more like a waster of money.
thescribe 9y ago
They're totally a scam, and it makes me upset every time a company brags that their insurance covers Chiropractors. No wonder it costs so much.
teilo 9y ago
This article is bullshit. There is a reason that insurance companies pay for chiropractic visits but not for faith healers.
realworldview 9y ago
I'll avoid them and stay with good ol' reliable homeopathy.

87 points by Sujan 9y ago

bluedino 9y ago

Are the okay to go to for back problems?

Geimfari 9y ago
It is not recommended. It is recommended to visit a physical therapist, who will treat you using research-based methods.
- CuriouslyC 9y ago
  I just want to chime in here that physical therapy research is usually not very good. Thus that "backed by science" guarantee isn't so strong. The truth is, when it comes to myofascial pain, nobody really understands what is going on. Empirical techniques (such as ART and Graston) can get results superior to those achieved by standard physical therapy.
pfarnsworth 9y ago
Yes. Find a good chiro and you're fine.

andreasgonewild 9y ago

The proven medicine of vaccines? Of injecting viruses and toxic substances into the bloodstream of healthy humans? Why not draw some blood while you're at it? To let out the evil spirits or whatever they used to tell people back then. Just earlier today someone was debunking the dangers of sugar and the advantages of natural, unprocessed food. Just one of those days, I guess. Truth is that if you have a problem with nerves being jammed between bones, or bones being out of alignment; a competent chiropractor might be exactly what you need. Ask around for references to find the good ones, there's nothing like personal experience of trusted individuals when searching for truth. Not that they would ever tell you in the hospital; they'll just radiate you, shoot you full of poison and send you back home to get sicker and deeper into debt. Scientific fundamentalism is just as stupid and dangerous as any other kind of fundamentalism; we were given brains to think, not to believe the most popular authority of the day. This article goes on about the profit motive of chiropractors, which doesn't even show up in statistics compared to that of our medical authorities.

pfarnsworth 9y ago

No it is not bullshit, not for back problems. I hurt my back and was suffering for 2 years. I went to a physiotherapist and they made me do stretches and other exercises. I took Advil and aleve and both eventually stopped working. It was debilitating and I desperation I went to a chiropractor. I am a huge skeptic and thought chiropractors were scams too but I was desperate. Within 6 weeks the pain disappeared permanently. This was over 10 years ago. Occsssionally i will tweak my back from carrying my kids on my back and I will go for s few sessions and I feel great afterwards. It's not bullshit, at least for back problems. Some chiros say it cures colds etc which is bullshit. You just need to find a chiro that doesn't deal with that stuff.

obstinate 9y ago
You know that thing about anecdotes. There are a lot of explanations for your situation getting better concurrently with chiro, but not because of chiro. For example, regression to the mean, placebo effect, etc. That said, I had been under the impression that chiro is about as effective for lower back pain as evidence-based physical therapy. But that doesn't mean it is effective. It could equally well mean that we don't know of many good treatments for lower back pain, and thus that physical therapy is only good as a placebo (chiropractic).
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  When you hurt your back then come back and respond. There's nothing worse than an armchair expert googling Wikipedia for their "knowledge".
  - obstinate 9y ago
    Even if I did, it would still be an anecdote. It would prove nothing either way. For that we have to look to data.
    - pfarnsworth 9y ago
      ya I take this back

throwaway198411 9y ago

vile post

abatilo 9y ago

This generalization is insane. I don't go to chiropractors regularly, and my situation was clearly be anecdotal, but there was one afternoon where any movement in my back caused me extreme pain. I scheduled a body massage to try to alleviate at least some of the pain but when I went it didn't help. Then my fiance suggested trying a chiropractor and I walked in, explained my pain, and in about 30 seconds it was all gone. I know there are skeezy chiropractors as well because I have a friend who worked for those kinds of people who swore they could cure anything. That's bull shit. But this article is a gross over generalization of a practice. The chiropractor I went to didn't try to sell me anything afterwards, he didn't promise any mirale weight loss, I just explained my pain and he fixed it. I respect that.

enraged_camel 9y ago
You should read up on the placebo effect. edit: Just to clarify, there is no scientific evidence that chiro is effective as anything other than placebo. All evidence provided is anecdotal and hence useless.
- tonyarkles 9y ago
  Could very well have been a pinched nerve or super tight muscle that needed to be tweaked a certain way to release. I've been there, although didn't see a chiropractor to fix it. I say this as a long time skeptic of chiropractic; my dad, in fact, had a terrible moment in his youth where he had lower body paralysis for 2 days after a chirp visit... My partner has ahhh unusual wrist physiology and when we moved to a new city (near where she grew up), she wanted to go visit her old chiropractor to get her wrist looked at (the same guy had looked at it 30 years ago). I bit my tongue and didn't say anything. His advice: you need to get X-rays and I'll schedule you to see a (mainstream MD) specialist. I'm still skeptical, but it gives me a little faith that in spite of whatever quackery exists, some of them do at least recognize problems that are the domain of conventional medicine.
- idanman 9y ago
  OK. So let's say it is the placebo effect. You can pay $50 for a massage that will manage your pain or better yet get rid of it or you can pay 100's of dollars and your insurance 1000's to be relieved of the pain with pain killers and medicine you don't need. For my money I'll choose the $50 and if it doesn't work then I'll consider other treatment options. Its seems hospitals are starting to wise up to this too. Here is Rutgers University Hospital Pain Management Center for example: "We also refer patients for alternative techniques such as acupuncture, chiropractic care, bio-feedback, and self-hypnosis." http://njms.rutgers.edu/departments/anesthesiology/pain_center.cfm http://njms.rutgers.edu/departments/anesthesiology/pain_cent...

kenbaylor 9y ago

Totally not bullshit. Hospitals alone kill close to 100,000 Americans alone each year. https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals https://www.propublica.org/article/how-many-die-from-medical... Chiropractors are good: 1) Personal experience. They have helped my spine recover multiple times, in record recovery time. 2) Modern medicine consists of prescribing drugs, or high risk surgeries. Paralysis for life is a real risk. 3) If you get a great one, they will add years of pain-free time for your life Chiropractors are also bad: a) There are some 'religious schools' founded by 'bodies for Christ' aka Maximized Living that make some interesting claims. Unfortunately these are becoming common b) many new chiropractors have poor technique. This often goes back to the previous point. c) Unless the person is really good don't let them mess with your neck. There is a growing link between neck manipulation and strokes, especially when 'fast techniques' are involved. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Deanna_Rothwell/publication/11997403_Chiropractic_manipulation_and_stroke_A_population-based_case-control_study/links/540d21960cf2d8daaacaefaa.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Deanna_Rothwell/publica... TLDR; This doesn't mean that Chiropractors are bad. There are many many great ones and it really works. There are many quacks who drink the cool aid. They are mostly new graduates. Modern medicine's approach to back and neck pain is utterly subpar and medieval. There are many quacks there too, and they kill a lot more every year. And the medical community also disavowed Surgery as 'quackery' not too long ago: http://mentalfloss.com/article/66664/how-uneducated-butchers-and-barbers-became-todays-skilled-surgeons http://mentalfloss.com/article/66664/how-uneducated-butchers...

awinder 9y ago
I don’t know what the more common treatment paths are but im fairly sure that the first line treatment path from modern medicine is working with a physical therapist, not surgery.
- kenbaylor 9y ago
  Depends where you are located. First line for me was pain killers. Then injections of pain killers, then chymopapain. Then surgery. My doctors did not 'believe in' physical therapy by non-doctors.

0xcde4c3db 9y ago

Just to be clear, the fact that someone bills themselves as a chiropractor doesn't mean that they exclusively offer chiropractic "treatments". Some offer quasi-legitimate physiotherapy-like treatment, advice on lifestyle modification, and guidance on over-the-counter drugs. Any of which might end up being useless or harmful depending on how knowledgeable and sensible a given chiropractor is. But the extent to which they do this corresponds pretty closely to how much they deviate from chiropractic theory and accept proven understandings of physiology.

closed 9y ago

This made me curious about its effectiveness for back pain, so I tried to find a meta-analysis. Turned up this on plos one. (note, I can't speak for the article's quality). > Moderate evidence suggests that chiropractic care for LBP appears to be equally effective as physical therapy. Limited evidence suggests the same conclusion when chiropractic care is compared to exercise therapy and medical care although no firm conclusion can be reached at this time. No serious adverse events were reported for any type of care. Our review was also unable to clarify whether chiropractic or medical care is more cost-effective. Given the limited available evidence, the decision to seek or to refer patients for chiropractic care should be based on patient preference and values. Future studies are likely to have an important impact on our estimates as these were based on only a few admissible studies. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0160037 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

arkades 9y ago
Standard of care for LBP is almost entirely ineffective. So... no surprises that chiropractic meets that standard.
- themantalope 9y ago
  The current recommendation for LBP is to not treat, unless they have long-standing radiculopathy.
- closed 9y ago
  That's part of what made me curious about LBP+chiropractic research! Pretty wild.

comstock 9y ago

This article is pretty long, a lot of it is interesting, but quite a lot is redundant. All I would really want to see is a summary of a study showing that chiropractors don't reduce pain. But if even a like to such a study is there, I didn't see it.

DougN7 9y ago
My chiropractor never reduced my pain, but he did point out what was wrong with my posture, which I corrected myself, and am now pain free. So I'm grateful for that and don't feel bad about the money spent on treatments. Having said that, a buddy is a chiropractor and the BS he believes...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

BooneJS 9y ago

Sample size 1 observations: I've been going to chiropractors off and on for a few years. I started with a lower back injury, saw my primary care physician, went to PT, and after a few visits she recommended seeing a chiropractor. It took a while before I found a chiropractor I was comfortable with. Most over-promised and had a ton of halo-effect services they constantly pushed. I found one that also offered massage and didn't try to upsell any of their other services and I found that combination worked for me. After I moved, I stopped the massage part. I stopped the chiropractor part. But the back pain hit me again in a big way. I've found that in times of high stress like I experienced several weeks ago an adjustment lasts for 1-2 days tops before it returns. My current guess based on this slightly-sensational article is that the massages help prevent muscles from messing with the entire system, so that's something I'll need to try.

aisofteng 9y ago
Deadlifting and squatting regularly has eliminated my lower back pain.
- BooneJS 9y ago
  I'll give that a shot as well. Sounds like I'll need some equipment to do that.
  - aisofteng 9y ago
    If you've had lower back injury, I strongly suggest you ask a medical professional first. In my case, it was muscle pain, which was alleviated (apparently) by making those muscles stronger. I did not have an actual injury; weight lifting after an injury can cause serious damage. If you do find it reasonable to try, a gym membership would be best, for at least a few months, and a couple sessions with a trainer. Poor form with these exercises can also lead to damage.

Tharkun 9y ago

I've never seen so many downvoted top level comments. Is the term "chiropractor" what's causing the problem in this discussion? Can anyone call themselves a chiropractor where the author of this article is based? It seems like it's a protected title in many European countries. In Norway & Denmark for instance the title can only be granted by studying medicine. Over there chiropractors can prescribe MRIs and some drugs. It looks like some folks in this thread are talking about quacks who brute force your back into oblivion, whereas others are talking about physical therapy spinal manipulation. I'm assuming these are not the same thing?

deleted 9y ago
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gnicholas 9y ago
In the US, it is not as regulated. My sense, from having tried chiro on several occasions is that they do quasi-medical things like x-rays when you first go in, to give the sense that they are on par with medical doctors. But the diagnosis is always the same — subluxation of the spine. That said, and even in spite of my strong skepticism toward their practice, I have to say that it was the only thing that helped my periodic extreme back pain. I had tried a medical doctor, physical therapist, and massage. Chiro provided immediate and near-complete relief. They tried to get me to come in 3x weekly for months (basically maxing out my insurance contribution), but I only ever needed 2-3 visits to feel 100%.

virtualwhys 9y ago

While I've never realized Nirvana through my chiropractic experiences, they have been immensely helpful in the short-term. For example, several years ago I spent the winter on the north shore of Oahu (Hawaii) surfing. The waves are often perfect and glassy, but pack a serious punch when you fall. I took a heavy wipeout, which left me as stiff necked as I've ever been. For a few days I could barely move my head from left to right. I needed to do something, so went to a chriropractor. The chiropractor had seen the surfer's whiplash injury many times before; after some light warmup massage work to loosen up the muscles, a quick jerking of the head, and crack!!, done. All the tension gone in an instant. Walked out a new man, was back in the water the next day. Less extreme, as a computer worker I often find myself in strange/unhealthy positions while consumed with solving yet another problem. This leaves my back not feeling all that great. So, 3 or 4 times a year I go to a chiropractor I know (in Montreal) and get an adjustment. While there's no permanent realignment, there is most definitely a temporary one, which feels great. I'd say it depends on the chiropractor (YMMV), and not that the profession as a whole is a hoax.

Para2016 9y ago
>a quick jerking of the head Please don't ever let anyone do that again. The two vertebral arteries that supply blood to your posterior brain (occipital lobe, cerebellum, medulla, pons) are encased in your cervical/neck vertebrae transverse processes. Quick manipulation of your neck with a "jerk" can injure these arteries and lead to dissection and infarct of your brain with permanent loss of function or it can even kill you. I've survived a vertebral dissection caused by neck manipulation which lead to permanent loss of vision. A dissection is injury to the inner lining of a blood vessel leading to clot formation over the tear. The clot can entirely obstruct the lumen of the vessel or parts can break off and obstruct downstream vessels leading to infarct. Please don't let anyone manipulate your neck in the future.
- gnicholas 9y ago
  I asked my (medical) doctor about the safety risks of chiropractic adjustment, and he said there are rare cases of permanent injury from neck adjustments. He said it was less than 1/1000, but enough to be worried about. I have found that whenever I (infrequently) go in for lower back pain, the chiro always goes up the back and neck also — especially if his attempts at adjustment lower down were not successful. I always have to remind him beforehand that I do not want my neck manipulated.

lwlml 9y ago

N=1 situation: Found that drinking more water helped the joints of my back ease and reduced lower-back-pain. After that, you need to do functional movements and lift-heavy-things, often. Not too heavy, but enough to prompt your body to improve its capabilities.

dragonwriter 9y ago

There's evidence that chiropractic is effective in certain domains, the problem is that the scope of practice of chiropractic is not limited to those domains. It's essentially pseudoscientific alternative medicine that has since had utility confirmed in some areas. But then, so is much actual medicine, the problem is that quackery remains more pervasive in churopractic. You can find chiros that aren't quacks, though; it's not like homeopathy.

Phlow 9y ago

I'd like to see a study of the correlation between people that believe Chiropractics is bullshit and people that believe climate change isn't real. Seriously, if you've ever been to a chiropractor for back and neck related problems, you know that it's at the VERY LEAST not bullshit. Claiming it's all just quack science is completely ignorant. I do know that chiropractors have long struggled to keep clientele, because people come when they're hurting, and stop coming when they feel better. So, some chiropractors have taken to questionable methods to keep people coming back. The ones on the up-and-up will, quite correctly, tell you that just cracking your back isn't going to fix your problem, and that you need to do strengthening exercises of the core muscles that keep your bones in the correct spots, and to fix your posture problems.

EpicEng 9y ago
I went to a chiro for neck and shoulder pain regularly for a couple of months. I felt nominally better for a couple of hours after each session, but then the problem came right back. They also told me to stretch, which was obvious. Took a trip to a doctor and got a useful diagnosis at the first visit. So I would say no, going to a chiro does not prove it to be more than complete BS. They stretched out my tight muscles/tendons which gave me minor temporary relief. Woohoo.
- Phlow 9y ago
  Well, how many people go to doctors and get no useful information or solutions to their problems? Tons. It doesn't follow that doctors are bullshit. (And I would argue that a couple hours of nominally feeling better is more than those people get from a doctor visit, but I digress) If your problems are spine/neck/etc related, having yourself adjusted will provide relief, and strengthening, stretching and maintaining good posture habits will help keep those things from recurring. And, of course, as you age, the body breaks down... there's only so much that can be corrected. I will say, strengthening my core made the most difference in my spine/neck pain. Heavy weight squats, push ups, planks, etc.
  - EpicEng 9y ago

justinclift 9y ago

Hmmm, the author doesn't seem to realise there are several different branches/systems/approaches of "chiropractors". The bone cracking ones which the author seems to be familiar with I'd personally agree. There is a system called NeuroLink though which (in personal experience for several years) does work: http://www.neurolinkglobal.com http://www.neurolinkglobal.com No bone cracking required. :)

err4nt 9y ago

Just my 2¢ as a migraine sufferer - although I am wary about getting adjusted (I fear having too many adjustments would increase the frequency at which I need adjustments) on more than one occasion, while suffering tremendously with migraine I've had chiropractors be able to make an adjustment that stops the migraine like flipping a light switch. (A $40 light switch lol). For me, this enabled me to drive home from the city where I was visiting (I was there every week on business and a migraine would have left me stranded unable to drive home, for hours) So just be aware that there are real cases where chiropractic, though expensive, can be insanely (and immediately) effective! There's no room for doubt in my experience, just what would be a potentially expensive habit if I kept going.

influnza 9y ago

I visited a chiropractor in Denmark. It was manual therapy, the doctors were knowledgeable and used massage and acupuncture in addition to "breaking bones" - all was very relieving and made a lot of sense. The one here in the US I did not trust. I looked more like a waster of money.

thescribe 9y ago

They're totally a scam, and it makes me upset every time a company brags that their insurance covers Chiropractors. No wonder it costs so much.

teilo 9y ago

This article is bullshit. There is a reason that insurance companies pay for chiropractic visits but not for faith healers.

realworldview 9y ago

I'll avoid them and stay with good ol' reliable homeopathy.