6 ms·

LTSB is meant for kiosks, embedded systems, and other business applications where a non-changing OS is important. If you put this on a laptop for daily use, yo

LTSB is meant for kiosks, embedded systems, and other business applications where a non-changing OS is important. If you put this on a laptop for daily use, you're going to have a bad time.

technion 9y ago
But that's precisely the problem. This article even calls it "Windows 10 without the cruft", and there's this misinformed view everywhere that you can "strip down" and accordingly "make faster" Windows by using the LTSB. And before you know it, everyone wants to. There are forum threads with people buying home desktops and being upset that they didn't get LTSB because "Cortana uses RAM I want for gaming". LTSB is a victim of poor marketing. It should be called "kiosk edition" or something to make some of these things really clear to people.
- justin66 9y ago
  As the article notes, "there’s no legitimate way for the average Windows user to get it." These are people who are going out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot. Marketing has nothing to do with it, whatever misinformation they're getting is coming from third parties.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    Well, it's also a matter of poor OS design decisions. People wouldn't be so desperate for a "streamlined" version of Windows if the default version wasn't so Godawful crufty.
  - scrollaway 9y ago
    They're not shooting themselves in the foot, they're being shot at by Microsoft and are desperate for that to stop, they make mistakes and trip in the process. I have two PCs: My main workstation is Arch Linux, my gaming PC is Windows 10. The difference is radical, W10 is absolute garbage for gaming. Every time I turn it on, it takes a solid 10+ minutes (sometimes way longer) updating itself. When I launch a game, sometimes out of nowhere it's going to start using all my bandwidth to download updates and I have no way to stop it other than kill the process using the task manager (it does come back a few minutes later though). It's nonsense. I have no control over what it's doing.
    - justin66 9y ago
      This windows behavior is bullshit, yes, but you actually do have control over it. The controls you need to customize Windows update are in Windows group policy. And yeah, if you're like me you'll find that first few links describing how to apply group policy changes don't work very well. If your reaction to that is to skip it and instead install some version of Windows that Microsoft won't even let you purchase because somebody's blog is positioning it as the cure to all that ails the world...
      - walterbell 9y ago
        If a product version exists with sensible defaults, a subset of users will prefer that version to "customizing" other versions.
      - scrollaway 9y ago
        Do you really think people have control over it? I've been using computer for 20 years, programming for the better part of that, and I feel completely powerless. I googled, I spent more time than I cared to, and I know that I could probably prevent this behaviour if I spend more time and do more research and so on but the point is, what on earth is a random guy who doesn't carry the experience of the average HN user going to do? Put yourself in these peoples' skins. You're paying a pretty penny for devices that don't obey you.
        justin66 9y ago
        Of course people have control over it. Wading through a little blogspam to get to a page explaining how to configure Windows Update is fairly simple compared to the struggles one used to face to make either a Windows or Mac system function well. (when was the last time you had to use regedit?) We have a Windows today where blue screens are extremely rare, PCs can be made secure, name brand stuff generally just works when you plug it in, and basic setup doesn't require much thought (Windows update notwithstanding). People are looking at the past with rose colored glasses and would get just as mad today if they had to install a NIC or internal modem or something in Windows 95 as they did back then. That doesn't excuse all the blatant stupidity of Windows 10's design, but still.
- hedora 9y ago
  Ok, I want a machine to do nothing but run office. I have given up on the portion of my Steam library that doesn't run on Linux, but running Steam would be a bonus. I have no interest in the app store, or any of Microsoft's cloud services, and sending my data to Microsoft (or leaving open a remote diagnostics backdoor) is a complete deal breaker for me. Since my Win 8 box downloaded backports of the Win 10 spyware without my authorization, I have physically unplugged it. Is there some reason LTSB will not meet my requirements? I can afford $7/month. It seems like the best choice at the moment, but I'd rather not waste time if it can't run office (or has hardware issues, etc).
  - kbenson 9y ago
    Regarding Steam, I imagine changes to DirectX (even small one)s, and games that update with requirements to use the new version (because why not try to make your users be less likely to complain to you about that bug?), will lead to some small but growing percentage of Steam titles over time not working, or trying to force a DirectX upgrade. As someone who has in the past run CentOS for my main work desktop, there are benefits and detriments to a stable platform like that for a desktop. Right after it comes out it's fairly heavily weighted on the benefits side. A couple years down the line? Not so much (and CentOS 6 took a long time to release).
  - bubblethink 9y ago
    Just run Windows in a VM and cut off internet access. Use the windows offline updater periodically (not nearly as important since you don't have internet; still useful if you are going to import foreign files into the vm). http://www.wsusoffline.net/ http://www.wsusoffline.net/. You'll need a different windows scapegoat machine to use wsusoffline though. I don't think there is a linux version. Also, office 2010 on wine/crossover is perfectly usable for light work. Office 2013 is also somewhat supported these days.
  - ViViDboarder 9y ago
    Are Wine and LibreOffice missing the mark by so much that you'd have an entire operating system for an office suite? I know those who heavily use Excel have good reason to use it over alternatives, but I would thick for home users, that'd be rare and that Wine could suffice.
- lucaspiller 9y ago
  In previous versions (XP-8.1?) there was Windows Embedded which is designed to be used in kiosks, POS systems, ATMs, etc. However that has now been renamed Windows IoT Enterprise which is apparently based on LTSB.
- bubblethink 9y ago
  >LTSB is a victim of poor marketing Put another way, LTSB is like free marketing research handed to MS on a platter. It tells them that there is a demand for an LTS OS, which is how all LTS linux distros are. i.e., No bullshit, stable, and user has all the control. I don't know what the differences between Home, Pro and Enterprise editions are, but one of them ought to be what the users expect LTSB to be, which currently isn't the case.
walterbell 9y ago
Are there good blog posts or other articles about the shortcomings of LTSB on laptops and desktops? There are many complaints about other editions. If LTSB cannot serve refugees from other Windows 10 editions, will those customers leave Windows entirely, or revert to Windows 7?
alkonaut 9y ago
The ltsb version is used as the only Win10 version for ordinary desktop use in a large US organization. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. And I never saw any documentation indicating this isn't the intended use - so I suspect a massive marketing and documentation error by Microsoft. It's basically used as "Win10 Enterprise".
- merb 9y ago
  what's wrong with Windows 10 Enterprise? I mean in the normal CBB branch you get updates pretty fast and you can remove/lock the store Apps via GPO. I think you can even disable Cortana. And it's mostly way more "stable" than only getting backports of fixes.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    I can't answer why ltsb is used. It's "Enterprise LTSB" so I suppose it's still Enterprise.
    - midnitewarrior 9y ago
      Enterprise is the channel it is sold to, as in, large business / enterprise. Windows is deployed by "Servicing Branches", there's the dev branch that's internal to Microsoft, there's the Preview Fast and Preview Slow branch builds that Windows Insiders get access to, giving them new Windows builds every week or two. There's the Consumer branch that pushes new features and bug fixes to consumer PCs after they've been tested. There's the Business branch that Enterprise and Pro customers get who've elected that option, then there's the LTSB, "Long Term Servicing Branch" for businesses that insist on using a desktop OS to run things like ATMs and kiosks. Many ATMs are still running Windows XP because banks don't like paying for software. Microsoft identified this need, and have deployed Windows 10 for this type of market. Under no circumstance has Microsoft intended for any desktop user to boot this and run Office and surf the web. You may be able to do it, but that is absolutely not their intention. They want their userbase to keep up with the latest features when their organizations don't slow that process down.
- 9y ago

LTSB is meant for kiosks, embedded systems, and other business applications where a non-changing OS is important. If you put this on a laptop for daily use, you're going to have a bad time.

technion 9y ago

But that's precisely the problem. This article even calls it "Windows 10 without the cruft", and there's this misinformed view everywhere that you can "strip down" and accordingly "make faster" Windows by using the LTSB. And before you know it, everyone wants to. There are forum threads with people buying home desktops and being upset that they didn't get LTSB because "Cortana uses RAM I want for gaming". LTSB is a victim of poor marketing. It should be called "kiosk edition" or something to make some of these things really clear to people.

justin66 9y ago
As the article notes, "there’s no legitimate way for the average Windows user to get it." These are people who are going out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot. Marketing has nothing to do with it, whatever misinformation they're getting is coming from third parties.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  Well, it's also a matter of poor OS design decisions. People wouldn't be so desperate for a "streamlined" version of Windows if the default version wasn't so Godawful crufty.
- scrollaway 9y ago
  They're not shooting themselves in the foot, they're being shot at by Microsoft and are desperate for that to stop, they make mistakes and trip in the process. I have two PCs: My main workstation is Arch Linux, my gaming PC is Windows 10. The difference is radical, W10 is absolute garbage for gaming. Every time I turn it on, it takes a solid 10+ minutes (sometimes way longer) updating itself. When I launch a game, sometimes out of nowhere it's going to start using all my bandwidth to download updates and I have no way to stop it other than kill the process using the task manager (it does come back a few minutes later though). It's nonsense. I have no control over what it's doing.
  - justin66 9y ago
    This windows behavior is bullshit, yes, but you actually do have control over it. The controls you need to customize Windows update are in Windows group policy. And yeah, if you're like me you'll find that first few links describing how to apply group policy changes don't work very well. If your reaction to that is to skip it and instead install some version of Windows that Microsoft won't even let you purchase because somebody's blog is positioning it as the cure to all that ails the world...
    - walterbell 9y ago
      If a product version exists with sensible defaults, a subset of users will prefer that version to "customizing" other versions.
    - scrollaway 9y ago
      Do you really think people have control over it? I've been using computer for 20 years, programming for the better part of that, and I feel completely powerless. I googled, I spent more time than I cared to, and I know that I could probably prevent this behaviour if I spend more time and do more research and so on but the point is, what on earth is a random guy who doesn't carry the experience of the average HN user going to do? Put yourself in these peoples' skins. You're paying a pretty penny for devices that don't obey you.
      - justin66 9y ago
        Of course people have control over it. Wading through a little blogspam to get to a page explaining how to configure Windows Update is fairly simple compared to the struggles one used to face to make either a Windows or Mac system function well. (when was the last time you had to use regedit?) We have a Windows today where blue screens are extremely rare, PCs can be made secure, name brand stuff generally just works when you plug it in, and basic setup doesn't require much thought (Windows update notwithstanding). People are looking at the past with rose colored glasses and would get just as mad today if they had to install a NIC or internal modem or something in Windows 95 as they did back then. That doesn't excuse all the blatant stupidity of Windows 10's design, but still.
hedora 9y ago
Ok, I want a machine to do nothing but run office. I have given up on the portion of my Steam library that doesn't run on Linux, but running Steam would be a bonus. I have no interest in the app store, or any of Microsoft's cloud services, and sending my data to Microsoft (or leaving open a remote diagnostics backdoor) is a complete deal breaker for me. Since my Win 8 box downloaded backports of the Win 10 spyware without my authorization, I have physically unplugged it. Is there some reason LTSB will not meet my requirements? I can afford $7/month. It seems like the best choice at the moment, but I'd rather not waste time if it can't run office (or has hardware issues, etc).
- kbenson 9y ago
  Regarding Steam, I imagine changes to DirectX (even small one)s, and games that update with requirements to use the new version (because why not try to make your users be less likely to complain to you about that bug?), will lead to some small but growing percentage of Steam titles over time not working, or trying to force a DirectX upgrade. As someone who has in the past run CentOS for my main work desktop, there are benefits and detriments to a stable platform like that for a desktop. Right after it comes out it's fairly heavily weighted on the benefits side. A couple years down the line? Not so much (and CentOS 6 took a long time to release).
- bubblethink 9y ago
  Just run Windows in a VM and cut off internet access. Use the windows offline updater periodically (not nearly as important since you don't have internet; still useful if you are going to import foreign files into the vm). http://www.wsusoffline.net/ http://www.wsusoffline.net/. You'll need a different windows scapegoat machine to use wsusoffline though. I don't think there is a linux version. Also, office 2010 on wine/crossover is perfectly usable for light work. Office 2013 is also somewhat supported these days.
- ViViDboarder 9y ago
  Are Wine and LibreOffice missing the mark by so much that you'd have an entire operating system for an office suite? I know those who heavily use Excel have good reason to use it over alternatives, but I would thick for home users, that'd be rare and that Wine could suffice.
lucaspiller 9y ago
In previous versions (XP-8.1?) there was Windows Embedded which is designed to be used in kiosks, POS systems, ATMs, etc. However that has now been renamed Windows IoT Enterprise which is apparently based on LTSB.
bubblethink 9y ago
>LTSB is a victim of poor marketing Put another way, LTSB is like free marketing research handed to MS on a platter. It tells them that there is a demand for an LTS OS, which is how all LTS linux distros are. i.e., No bullshit, stable, and user has all the control. I don't know what the differences between Home, Pro and Enterprise editions are, but one of them ought to be what the users expect LTSB to be, which currently isn't the case.

walterbell 9y ago

Are there good blog posts or other articles about the shortcomings of LTSB on laptops and desktops? There are many complaints about other editions. If LTSB cannot serve refugees from other Windows 10 editions, will those customers leave Windows entirely, or revert to Windows 7?

alkonaut 9y ago

The ltsb version is used as the only Win10 version for ordinary desktop use in a large US organization. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. And I never saw any documentation indicating this isn't the intended use - so I suspect a massive marketing and documentation error by Microsoft. It's basically used as "Win10 Enterprise".

merb 9y ago
what's wrong with Windows 10 Enterprise? I mean in the normal CBB branch you get updates pretty fast and you can remove/lock the store Apps via GPO. I think you can even disable Cortana. And it's mostly way more "stable" than only getting backports of fixes.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I can't answer why ltsb is used. It's "Enterprise LTSB" so I suppose it's still Enterprise.
  - midnitewarrior 9y ago
    Enterprise is the channel it is sold to, as in, large business / enterprise. Windows is deployed by "Servicing Branches", there's the dev branch that's internal to Microsoft, there's the Preview Fast and Preview Slow branch builds that Windows Insiders get access to, giving them new Windows builds every week or two. There's the Consumer branch that pushes new features and bug fixes to consumer PCs after they've been tested. There's the Business branch that Enterprise and Pro customers get who've elected that option, then there's the LTSB, "Long Term Servicing Branch" for businesses that insist on using a desktop OS to run things like ATMs and kiosks. Many ATMs are still running Windows XP because banks don't like paying for software. Microsoft identified this need, and have deployed Windows 10 for this type of market. Under no circumstance has Microsoft intended for any desktop user to boot this and run Office and surf the web. You may be able to do it, but that is absolutely not their intention. They want their userbase to keep up with the latest features when their organizations don't slow that process down.
9y ago