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Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well.

Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well. And human being.

petercooper 16y ago
I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's quality as a human being.
- blasdel 16y ago
  To be fair, there's a long history of self-aggrandizing blog posts with which to judge him by.
  - petercooper 16y ago
    That still seems like an curious criterion with which to judge someone's humanity. Gary Vaynerchuk, DHH, Zed Shaw, and a lot of the people admired by many HNers are very self-aggrandizing. Sidenote: It seems that people like this have to deal with a trough on their way up where a lot of judgment gets thrown their way for their outgoing manner. If they hit it big, though, that seems to be quickly forgotten and everyone loves them. We've seen it with all of the above. Those who fail to cross the trough, end up forgotten.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      Zed, for example, is very much like that. In the other hand he produces lots if great code and ideas. That is why he earned respect.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior. What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your behavior. Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when picking that word. :P :)
  - marknutter 16y ago
    What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. Indeed
    - drdew 16y ago
      Indeed
astrange 16y ago
Was that last part necessary? I think it's a bad idea to declare someone not a good human being based on the one blog post you read. (Especially since he wrote a few others about saving endangered species and homeless people.)
- mkramlich 16y ago
  You're totally right. I have never met either man in person. I only said I suspected that, based on the personal behavior I've seen expressed in both cases. I've never seen Carmack behave badly. What I read in the Lee post constitutes bad behavior, in my ethical system. YMMV.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    What part do you deem unethical? I am conflicted about the ethics of driving high speed sports cars myself :-)
    - mkramlich 16y ago
      I didn't say he was unethical. I said he did something that constitutes what I consider to be bad behavior. Publically announcing one's $1000/hr pay rate to the entire world, and writing a post using the particular language and attitude shown in it. That struck me as bad behavior, applying the same standards I'd expect out of anybody else. Is it like robbing a bank? Heck no. Obnoxious? In my book, yep. And look, I'm clearly not the only one who had the same reaction, as evidenced by what others have said in this article's discussion area. As long as no bunnies were made to cry during the production of a Tesla Roadster, I'm confident I wouldn't feel conflicted about driving one. :)
      - Tichy 16y ago
        I've had a client once tell me that my rate was outrageously high (it was average, but anyway). Since then I have come to the conclusion that basically, it is impossible to have an outrageously high rate. My rate is not the value I assign to a particular task (ie solving the clients problem). My rate is the value I assign to my own time. How can anybody else besides me judge the "fair" value I assign to my own time? There are exceptions, of course - I guess if I was a surgeon and I would refuse to operate on somebody because they can't afford me, the ethics would be very questionable.

Interesting comparison you made too. Because for me, I respect Carmack a hell of a lot more than Mike Lee. And I suspect he's a much better programmer as well. And human being.

petercooper 16y ago

I find it more interesting that you're using a blog post to judge the author's quality as a human being.

blasdel 16y ago
To be fair, there's a long history of self-aggrandizing blog posts with which to judge him by.
- petercooper 16y ago
  That still seems like an curious criterion with which to judge someone's humanity. Gary Vaynerchuk, DHH, Zed Shaw, and a lot of the people admired by many HNers are very self-aggrandizing. Sidenote: It seems that people like this have to deal with a trough on their way up where a lot of judgment gets thrown their way for their outgoing manner. If they hit it big, though, that seems to be quickly forgotten and everyone loves them. We've seen it with all of the above. Those who fail to cross the trough, end up forgotten.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Zed, for example, is very much like that. In the other hand he produces lots if great code and ideas. That is why he earned respect.
mkramlich 16y ago
Writing things on the Internet is part of human behavior. What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. The Internet is not some special place that is exempt from all normal expectations of conduct that otherwise hold in meatspace. Just as simply being part of a business enterprise does not exempt one from being judged as a human based on your behavior. Also note I said "suspect" not "knew for certain" or anything as extreme or decisive as that. Important distinction, and one I chose intentionally when picking that word. :P :)
- marknutter 16y ago
  What a person says reveals aspects of who they are. Indeed
  - drdew 16y ago
    Indeed

astrange 16y ago

Was that last part necessary? I think it's a bad idea to declare someone not a good human being based on the one blog post you read. (Especially since he wrote a few others about saving endangered species and homeless people.)

mkramlich 16y ago
You're totally right. I have never met either man in person. I only said I suspected that, based on the personal behavior I've seen expressed in both cases. I've never seen Carmack behave badly. What I read in the Lee post constitutes bad behavior, in my ethical system. YMMV.
- Tichy 16y ago
  What part do you deem unethical? I am conflicted about the ethics of driving high speed sports cars myself :-)
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    I didn't say he was unethical. I said he did something that constitutes what I consider to be bad behavior. Publically announcing one's $1000/hr pay rate to the entire world, and writing a post using the particular language and attitude shown in it. That struck me as bad behavior, applying the same standards I'd expect out of anybody else. Is it like robbing a bank? Heck no. Obnoxious? In my book, yep. And look, I'm clearly not the only one who had the same reaction, as evidenced by what others have said in this article's discussion area. As long as no bunnies were made to cry during the production of a Tesla Roadster, I'm confident I wouldn't feel conflicted about driving one. :)
    - Tichy 16y ago
      I've had a client once tell me that my rate was outrageously high (it was average, but anyway). Since then I have come to the conclusion that basically, it is impossible to have an outrageously high rate. My rate is not the value I assign to a particular task (ie solving the clients problem). My rate is the value I assign to my own time. How can anybody else besides me judge the "fair" value I assign to my own time? There are exceptions, of course - I guess if I was a surgeon and I would refuse to operate on somebody because they can't afford me, the ethics would be very questionable.