3 ms·

Here's the problem. Windows is for everyone, the vast majority of people will run Windows on their desktop and laptop PCs. The vast majority of people also kn

by dlp211 9y ago

Here's the problem. Windows is for everyone, the vast majority of people will run Windows on their desktop and laptop PCs. The vast majority of people also know nothing about computing and OS security. The vast majority of people will rely on someone that is "computer savvy". If Microsoft had an OS that met the needs of what probably amounts to < 1% of the total market; that is people that want to, and know how to manage updates; it would be abused by those "computer savvy" people and by extension ultimately wind up in the hands of people that have no business running it as an OS. Then we end up with a whole bunch of computers that will fall victim to the next "Wanna Cry" and you know who people will blame, Microsoft for not keeping their device patched and secure. Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft as part of the Windows org, but generally do not work much on the OS or its applications and the opinions I put forward are mine and mine alone.

throwaway2048 9y ago
Its great we have father Microsoft that knows best for all of us. Paternalism ensuring we can't hurt ourselves on the pointy bits.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
xg15 9y ago
Standard counter-argument: Then be respectful of the trust people (voluntarily or not) place in you and don't abuse the update channel. The problem is that Windows updates have gotten a bad reputation which is partially justified by the tracking and nagware during the Windows 10 transition. If the reputation gets too bad, then even non-computer-savy people will start to turn off updates - with even worse consequences for security.
- dlp211 9y ago
  Microsoft started by doing what every other OS maker was already doing by collecting telemetry (note: they weren't selling it). A minor community of users caused a massive uproar about the telemetry coming off the device despite the fact that you could always turn it down to basic level which was essentially crash dumps and the info we need to not push you a bad update. But MSFT listened and provided additional privacy controls AND they made it so that you have to go through them on upgrade and install. If you continue to bash on a company even as it makes attempts to listen and respond to its users, then there is no reason for the company to continue to listen.
  - wfunction 9y ago
    > despite the fact that you could always turn it down to basic level which was essentially crash dumps Crash dumps contain memory dumps, right? Memory dumps can contain passwords and other sensitive data, right? Whom are you trying to fool?
    - dlp211 9y ago
      Which MSFT has been collecting since Win XP SP2. There are plenty of other OS's that do the same thing and plenty more than don't. If you are that paranoid, you are more than welcome to not use Windows/not work at a place that uses Windows/not use your passwords and usernames when using Windows.
      - wfunction 9y ago
        > Which MSFT has been collecting since Win XP SP2 Didn't they let you disable it though? Unlike what you just claimed is the case in Win10? > you are more than welcome to not use Windows Yes, and people would avoid upgrading to Windows 10 because of this, if you didn't shove it down their throats. Which is of course why you had to do that in the first place.
        dlp211 9y ago
        No, not to my knowledge. In fact, most people didn't even know that MSFT lit this feature up and they beefed it up for Vista. I didn't shove anything down anyone's throat. Also, let's not pretend that everyone at MSFT was happy about this approach. But you have to think about it from MSFT's perspective. We are promising that if you move to Win10 you will always be up-to-date for the rest of the lifetime of Windows. You'll never pay for another upgrade/update. The benefit to MSFT is that if they get everyone over to 10, they only have to support a single core OS instead of backporting every single bug and security fix. And no, MSFT isn't perfect, and it has made mistakes, just like every person and company on the planet. But it isn't doing this out of some malicious intent. The company is learning as it goes and genuinely trying to do right by its customers, but it doesn't matter what I say or what MSFT does, people like you will always find a reason to complain.
hedora 9y ago
The number of people I've met that are happy about new Windows 10 features outnumber the ones that would rather stick with win7 + security updates (without the privacy invading stuff). The ratio is 5:1 if I ignore "computer savvy" people. (Actually, it is 5:0, but I'll be generous to MS on this). If I include tech savvy people, the ratio goes up. I don't know any "normal" users that voluntarily upgraded to Win 10, though I don't know any that successfully blocked the upgrade either. From what the article says, and based on their comments to me, the normal users I know would all prefer LTSB to consumer Win10.
- wfunction 9y ago
  > The number of people I've met that are happy about new Windows 10 features outnumber the ones that would rather stick with win7 + security updates (without the privacy invading stuff). And what about Windows 8.1 (with classic shell, not Metro)?
  - hedora 9y ago
    I'm the only one I know with 8.1. Metro is fine, from what I can tell. There are zero complaints about tiles in the start menu. It's more "WTF is it doing in the background?" (usually ram, hd or isp issues, or maybe random candy crush / lock screen spam) Next: "I can't rely on it working, since it stalls for seconds on end" Followed by: "Can you turn all of the data collection / spam off?" And finally: "I guess I'll just use my phone/tablet. That sucks"
    - wfunction 9y ago
      Haha I see, interesting, okay thanks :)
yuhong 9y ago
Reminds me of https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/853704702705377280 https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/853704702705377280 . As a side note, I should mention that Win10 1507 support has been extended an extra month at the time of this writing (Pro editions has the CBB option, Home don't). That June update has its own known bugs which MS will have to fix too. Also to OP: Be aware of the about box.
gerdesj 9y ago
"Here's the problem. Windows is for everyone" No it isn't. It's just another OS. My wife (who no-one would ever describe as a nerd) uses Arch Linux on her laptop. She doesn't really know that and does not care - it simply works. My support burden dramatically reduced when I removed the pre-installed OS. At the risk of sounding like a complete wanker: I will almost certainly know more about Windows than you will ever want to know (but I have never had source code access). I used to be able to get around 620Kb free RAM available on DOS 6 (nee Quick and Dirty OS) without resorting to QEMM and have dealt with all the weird shit that your employers have chucked out since then. At some time in the early nineties I discovered there was choice. Your employer was no longer the only game in town. Ok there was Acorn and Apple and stuff. Nowadays, I see your employer as a bit of an inconsequential (with history) hindrance to progress - soz Cheers Jon PS My firm is also an MS "partner" sigh
syrrim 9y ago
LTSB comes with security fixes, and therefore is not susceptible to wannacry and similar exploits.
Spooky23 9y ago
That argument held water until you consider that Windows 7 exists, and had Microsoft invested in building that platform in a sane way at any point in the last upgrade instead of going off the rails (again) with Windows 8 and making Windows 10 something that looks like legacy windows, life would be simpler. For my employer the solution to this problem for higher end users is easy -- Apple.
Spooky23 9y ago
That argument held water until you consider that Windows 7 exists, and had Microsoft invested in building that platform in a sane way at any point in the last upgrade instead of going off the rails (again) with Windows 8 and making Windows 10 something that looks like legacy windows, life would be simpler. For my employer the solution to this problem for higher end users is easy -- Apple.

by dlp211 9y ago

throwaway2048 9y ago

Its great we have father Microsoft that knows best for all of us. Paternalism ensuring we can't hurt ourselves on the pointy bits.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

xg15 9y ago

Standard counter-argument: Then be respectful of the trust people (voluntarily or not) place in you and don't abuse the update channel. The problem is that Windows updates have gotten a bad reputation which is partially justified by the tracking and nagware during the Windows 10 transition. If the reputation gets too bad, then even non-computer-savy people will start to turn off updates - with even worse consequences for security.

dlp211 9y ago
Microsoft started by doing what every other OS maker was already doing by collecting telemetry (note: they weren't selling it). A minor community of users caused a massive uproar about the telemetry coming off the device despite the fact that you could always turn it down to basic level which was essentially crash dumps and the info we need to not push you a bad update. But MSFT listened and provided additional privacy controls AND they made it so that you have to go through them on upgrade and install. If you continue to bash on a company even as it makes attempts to listen and respond to its users, then there is no reason for the company to continue to listen.
- wfunction 9y ago
  > despite the fact that you could always turn it down to basic level which was essentially crash dumps Crash dumps contain memory dumps, right? Memory dumps can contain passwords and other sensitive data, right? Whom are you trying to fool?
  - dlp211 9y ago
    Which MSFT has been collecting since Win XP SP2. There are plenty of other OS's that do the same thing and plenty more than don't. If you are that paranoid, you are more than welcome to not use Windows/not work at a place that uses Windows/not use your passwords and usernames when using Windows.
    - wfunction 9y ago
      > Which MSFT has been collecting since Win XP SP2 Didn't they let you disable it though? Unlike what you just claimed is the case in Win10? > you are more than welcome to not use Windows Yes, and people would avoid upgrading to Windows 10 because of this, if you didn't shove it down their throats. Which is of course why you had to do that in the first place.
      - dlp211 9y ago
        No, not to my knowledge. In fact, most people didn't even know that MSFT lit this feature up and they beefed it up for Vista. I didn't shove anything down anyone's throat. Also, let's not pretend that everyone at MSFT was happy about this approach. But you have to think about it from MSFT's perspective. We are promising that if you move to Win10 you will always be up-to-date for the rest of the lifetime of Windows. You'll never pay for another upgrade/update. The benefit to MSFT is that if they get everyone over to 10, they only have to support a single core OS instead of backporting every single bug and security fix. And no, MSFT isn't perfect, and it has made mistakes, just like every person and company on the planet. But it isn't doing this out of some malicious intent. The company is learning as it goes and genuinely trying to do right by its customers, but it doesn't matter what I say or what MSFT does, people like you will always find a reason to complain.

hedora 9y ago

The number of people I've met that are happy about new Windows 10 features outnumber the ones that would rather stick with win7 + security updates (without the privacy invading stuff). The ratio is 5:1 if I ignore "computer savvy" people. (Actually, it is 5:0, but I'll be generous to MS on this). If I include tech savvy people, the ratio goes up. I don't know any "normal" users that voluntarily upgraded to Win 10, though I don't know any that successfully blocked the upgrade either. From what the article says, and based on their comments to me, the normal users I know would all prefer LTSB to consumer Win10.

wfunction 9y ago
> The number of people I've met that are happy about new Windows 10 features outnumber the ones that would rather stick with win7 + security updates (without the privacy invading stuff). And what about Windows 8.1 (with classic shell, not Metro)?
- hedora 9y ago
  I'm the only one I know with 8.1. Metro is fine, from what I can tell. There are zero complaints about tiles in the start menu. It's more "WTF is it doing in the background?" (usually ram, hd or isp issues, or maybe random candy crush / lock screen spam) Next: "I can't rely on it working, since it stalls for seconds on end" Followed by: "Can you turn all of the data collection / spam off?" And finally: "I guess I'll just use my phone/tablet. That sucks"
  - wfunction 9y ago
    Haha I see, interesting, okay thanks :)

yuhong 9y ago

Reminds me of https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/853704702705377280 https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/853704702705377280 . As a side note, I should mention that Win10 1507 support has been extended an extra month at the time of this writing (Pro editions has the CBB option, Home don't). That June update has its own known bugs which MS will have to fix too. Also to OP: Be aware of the about box.

gerdesj 9y ago

"Here's the problem. Windows is for everyone" No it isn't. It's just another OS. My wife (who no-one would ever describe as a nerd) uses Arch Linux on her laptop. She doesn't really know that and does not care - it simply works. My support burden dramatically reduced when I removed the pre-installed OS. At the risk of sounding like a complete wanker: I will almost certainly know more about Windows than you will ever want to know (but I have never had source code access). I used to be able to get around 620Kb free RAM available on DOS 6 (nee Quick and Dirty OS) without resorting to QEMM and have dealt with all the weird shit that your employers have chucked out since then. At some time in the early nineties I discovered there was choice. Your employer was no longer the only game in town. Ok there was Acorn and Apple and stuff. Nowadays, I see your employer as a bit of an inconsequential (with history) hindrance to progress - soz Cheers Jon PS My firm is also an MS "partner" sigh

syrrim 9y ago

LTSB comes with security fixes, and therefore is not susceptible to wannacry and similar exploits.

Spooky23 9y ago

That argument held water until you consider that Windows 7 exists, and had Microsoft invested in building that platform in a sane way at any point in the last upgrade instead of going off the rails (again) with Windows 8 and making Windows 10 something that looks like legacy windows, life would be simpler. For my employer the solution to this problem for higher end users is easy -- Apple.

Spooky23 9y ago