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It seems the warship was being overtaken here, so rule 13 applies in this case "an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken".

by mjlee 9y ago

droopybuns 9y ago
TIL! Thanks! I had always thought the only rule that mattered was relating to boats overtaking on the right.
jessaustin 9y ago
Since the navy boat is much faster, we can't assume it was being overtaken. How often do such boats bob along at 10 knots in shipping lanes? IMHO it seems more likely that the navy were overtaking, but unfortunately their course cut too close to the course of the cargo ship. Imagine a car in the leftmost lane racing to get ahead of slower traffic, then turning or merging right. Only, instead of doing so directly ahead of a cyclist as such cars often do, this one merged right in front of a 29,000-ton cargo ship.
- mjlee 9y ago
  >How often do such boats bob along at 10 knots in shipping lanes? Very often. Shipping lanes are often the most direct route from A to B and 10kts is about the most economical speed for many different ships.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    We're talking about the navy destroyer? That is news to me.
    - mpyne 9y ago
      A destroyer can certainly move fast, but they don't have to, and in fact it would generally be safer in a crowded area to try to maintain the same speed as the civilian traffic, on top of being fuel efficient.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        I don't think "safety" was the primary objective on the navy boat, but even if it had been, an accident with this damage (starboard deckhouse of navy, port bow of cargo) when both boats are going similar speeds means that the navy boat was the "give-way" yet stupidly crossed the "stand-on". There are red and green nav lights installed on every motorized boat ever manufactured, to help idiots not make that mistake. The assumption that the speeds are the same makes this incident entirely the navy's fault.
        mpyne 9y ago
        Not necessarily true. A ship that is overtaking another ship, even if coming from the right side, is the "give-way" vessel until she is well clear of the ship she had been overtaking. This is true even if the course the ship is using to overtake the other transiently puts them on the starboard side of the other ship. To determine "crossing situation" vs "overtaking situation" you have to know the courses of both ships, and that's data we don't have yet as far as I've seen.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        It was your hypothesis that they were going the same speed. I just pointed out the only possible implication of that. I think that the navy overtaking from port is more likely to have been the case. You seem to be suggesting now that the navy boat was going much slower than the cargo ship's maximum 10-12 knots, which is just goofy. Besides we've already heard the testimony of the cargo ship's captain, which testimony is 100% corroborated by the AIS track. As the stand-on, they did everything they could to hail and signal to the navy boat. The navy boat kept coming across their bow. At the last moment, they turned hard to starboard. The navy will never release any of their own records, because such would only make the obvious, more obvious. It's not as though there haven't been other navy boats doing similar stupid shit over the last few years: Porter, Port Royal, etc., not even to mention the problems that their subs keep having. Ask a merchant mariner about navy safety. Their motto is, "if it's gray, stay away!" In most of those cases they've been able to claim extenuating circumstances. That won't happen here: the cargo ship was operating exactly as one would expect, in a busy shipping land, in clear weather. The captain and OOD have the deaths of sailors on their hands. Those who imagine that they lead this navy, should ponder what sort of response would best prevent a repeat of this tragedy.

It seems the warship was being overtaken here, so rule 13 applies in this case "an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken".

by mjlee 9y ago

It seems the warship was being overtaken here, so rule 13 applies in this case "an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken".

droopybuns 9y ago

TIL! Thanks! I had always thought the only rule that mattered was relating to boats overtaking on the right.

jessaustin 9y ago

Since the navy boat is much faster, we can't assume it was being overtaken. How often do such boats bob along at 10 knots in shipping lanes? IMHO it seems more likely that the navy were overtaking, but unfortunately their course cut too close to the course of the cargo ship. Imagine a car in the leftmost lane racing to get ahead of slower traffic, then turning or merging right. Only, instead of doing so directly ahead of a cyclist as such cars often do, this one merged right in front of a 29,000-ton cargo ship.

mjlee 9y ago
>How often do such boats bob along at 10 knots in shipping lanes? Very often. Shipping lanes are often the most direct route from A to B and 10kts is about the most economical speed for many different ships.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  We're talking about the navy destroyer? That is news to me.
  - mpyne 9y ago
    A destroyer can certainly move fast, but they don't have to, and in fact it would generally be safer in a crowded area to try to maintain the same speed as the civilian traffic, on top of being fuel efficient.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      I don't think "safety" was the primary objective on the navy boat, but even if it had been, an accident with this damage (starboard deckhouse of navy, port bow of cargo) when both boats are going similar speeds means that the navy boat was the "give-way" yet stupidly crossed the "stand-on". There are red and green nav lights installed on every motorized boat ever manufactured, to help idiots not make that mistake. The assumption that the speeds are the same makes this incident entirely the navy's fault.
      - mpyne 9y ago
        Not necessarily true. A ship that is overtaking another ship, even if coming from the right side, is the "give-way" vessel until she is well clear of the ship she had been overtaking. This is true even if the course the ship is using to overtake the other transiently puts them on the starboard side of the other ship. To determine "crossing situation" vs "overtaking situation" you have to know the courses of both ships, and that's data we don't have yet as far as I've seen.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        It was your hypothesis that they were going the same speed. I just pointed out the only possible implication of that. I think that the navy overtaking from port is more likely to have been the case. You seem to be suggesting now that the navy boat was going much slower than the cargo ship's maximum 10-12 knots, which is just goofy. Besides we've already heard the testimony of the cargo ship's captain, which testimony is 100% corroborated by the AIS track. As the stand-on, they did everything they could to hail and signal to the navy boat. The navy boat kept coming across their bow. At the last moment, they turned hard to starboard. The navy will never release any of their own records, because such would only make the obvious, more obvious. It's not as though there haven't been other navy boats doing similar stupid shit over the last few years: Porter, Port Royal, etc., not even to mention the problems that their subs keep having. Ask a merchant mariner about navy safety. Their motto is, "if it's gray, stay away!" In most of those cases they've been able to claim extenuating circumstances. That won't happen here: the cargo ship was operating exactly as one would expect, in a busy shipping land, in clear weather. The captain and OOD have the deaths of sailors on their hands. Those who imagine that they lead this navy, should ponder what sort of response would best prevent a repeat of this tragedy.